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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2013 :  7:35:36 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That about sums up how aggravated I am trying to get to the bottom of Thunder's penchant for stumbling. Guess it's time to get the vet out for an assessment and ex-rays, as everything else (Natural Balance shoes, chiropractic adjustment, etc.) Just today, he stumbled on his right front three times walking quickly/trotting in the pasture.

So, it looks like there is a possibility that a) I won't be riding next weekend, and b) I will most likely be looking for a new horse next season..........

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2013 :  7:54:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some horses are just clumsey, and it doesn't necessarily mean anything is wrong. A lot of the Quarter Horses I've had, just wouldn't pick up their feet, and would stumble over every little uneven spot on the ground! Unusual to see this in an Arab, though, I admit. Hope everything checks out okay, since he seems to be such a great horse for you, otherwise.

EZ2SPOT
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 10/12/2013 :  8:37:24 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks, EZ. Clumsy is what I would think, too, if it happened with different feet, but this is always on the right front.

When the chiro was here and observed Thunder at a walk, he said that he was compensating for the movement of his left side, which was the side out of kilter, with his right side. I don't know if all of this compensation for that may be causing problems on the right side now.

He may have a bit or arthritis or something as well, since he is 20 years old.

All I know is it is aggravating to know he may not be trustworthy on trails, because it really detracts from your ride when you are always worried your horse is going to stumble and fall.

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2013 :  09:30:38 AM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have you tried him on Bute? I was just wondering if he stumbles as much when he's on it. I have Joe on Platinum Performance for joints since his bout with laminitis per Dr. Bill's suggestion.

Does he stumble more on a particular lead? (not that I'd know what that means!) Do you think he's getting worse?

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2013 :  8:09:48 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haven't tried him on bute yet, PG. That is one thing my vet said to try when I mentioned to him earlier about Thunder stumbling. Was going to try it at this next weekend's ride. I am sure a supplement would be a good thing for Thunder, as I am sure his joints would appreciate it.

The vet comes tomorrow at 4:00 and I'm hoping he'll have some good news.

When he stumbles, it is always on the right. He will go down to his knees or his hind leg will slide out from under him. When Maria and I rode in Brown County earlier this year, he went down in the front and the back, each time on the right. I don't know if it is getting worse or I am always looking for it. When he canters he is fine. When he is in a fast trot he is fine. But if he walks or does a little job trot he stumbles.


Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2013 :  8:38:37 PM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know he won't stumble when the vet is there!

Let us know what the vet says.

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2013 :  12:20:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is certainly odd! You'd think that if he had a serious problem, it would also be evident at a trot and a canter. Brings to mind the older grade Arab gelding I had, who fell down with me a few times. The vet could find nothing wrong, and finally told me that if he did it again, I was to get off, get him up, get back on, and continue the ride as if nothing had happened. Well, he went down again, I followed the vet's instructions, away we went, and I never had that problem with him again.

EZ2SPOT
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2013 :  8:33:54 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the vet came out, and I think PG must have called Thunder to tip him off! That durn horse didn't stumble a single time!

He did give him a complete going over testing for flexibility, swelling, tenderness in the feet, neurologic weaknesses......you name it. Thunder did fine. No stumble, no bobble, nothing, nada. Vet wanted to see him at a trot and maintained his composure quite well as he watched me TRY to run fast enough to get Thunder to trot. So, we decided to lunge him a little. Thunder moved on the lunge easily, both directions. No bobble, no stumble, nada.

Vet recommended that we try to get a little weight off of him (yes, I let him beef up on me over the summer because we didn't ride much). He gave me some thyroid supplement just to help with the weight loss. He also said to ride him for exercise as well. I am to touch base with the vet every now and then to let him know how the stumbling goes.

He said that if the stumbling continues at its present rate or worsens, he can then test for EPM and navicular, but he didn't think that would be necessary now as he did not see anything on clinical to indicate either.

He also said that if starts to get sore from the exercise, there are some injections I can give him for his joints.

So, after the vet left. I decided to lunge Thunder for about 10 minutes. Can ya guess what happened? Yep, he started stumbling!

We shall see what the next few weeks hold.

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2013 :  11:35:55 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
EPM was the first thing that came to mind for me, but in my experience the stumbling never improved but just got worse. So in my honest opinion, I really don't think Thunder has EPM from what I went through with two of my horses that died from it. Of course any vet would know more about that than I do.


"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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farmgirl
Beginning Rider



116 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2013 :  11:38:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit farmgirl's Homepage  Reply with Quote
My husband's horse stumbles and does not want
to pick her feet up.Some times i think it is
being Lazy'. I want to know what the vet. would say.
I have been giving all the horses a joint suplment.
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 10/15/2013 :  08:03:34 AM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
EPM was one of the things I thought of as well, RH.

Dr. Willard spent a good amount of time checking Thunder out. He checked for muscle tone loss, which is a sign of EPM. He checked for flexibility and weakness in his legs. He pulled on his tail moving from side to side and had me walk Thunder off in a straight line to see if he walked well while he was tugging on his tail (he did). He criss-crossed Thunders hind legs to check his standing ability to see if he swayed or toppled (he didn't). He used hoof testers on his frog and heels checking for soreness indicative of navicular (didn't find any).

He said I may want to try rocker toe shoes on the front feet (I have natural balance shoes on right now), which pretty much work the same way.

If we have to go to the next level we will check for EPM exposure with blood work ($80) and exrays for navicular ($240).

Dr. Willard was trying to stay as inexpensive as possible at first, since nothing really jumped out at him on clinical exam.

At the end of the day, Thunder is 19-20 years old and he may just be having old man issues.

Doc mentioned a joint supplement injection that can be given weekly for a month and then once every couple of weeks, that is less costly than feed through supplements. So I may go to that at some point.

We shall see what the future holds.

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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farmgirl
Beginning Rider



116 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2013 :  7:36:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit farmgirl's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thank's for the info,on your horse
i would like to know what happen
later. If you have to get x-ray's ect.
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2013 :  7:31:25 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Managed to do some trail riding Sunday at Shelby Trails Park in Shelby County. Tagged along with a couple of guided rides about :45 minutes each. First trip out, Thunder was a little hyped up and stumbled a few times. By the second round, he was calmed down and didn't stumble any.

So, I wonder, if his problems could be caused by inattention? If so, how do you get him to pay attention?

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2013 :  11:11:31 AM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My buddy, Dave, says to make a horse work when they stumble due to inattention. If they stumble at a walk make them trot a bit. I wonder about working him over rails or posts laid on the ground would help him learn to watch his feet.

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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Arenadirt
Trainer

USA
670 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2013 :  3:43:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit Arenadirt's Homepage Send Arenadirt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had the hardest time trying to teach Seven to pay attention to where he was putting his feet. I'd set up rails and poles and he'd plough right through them without paying one bit of attention. He'd also trip and stumble on level ground sometimes (usually in an arena, almost never on a trail).

The "cure" came in the form of little rings of bells (actually more like rattles) that Sandy dug out of her bag of tricks... they fit over the hoofs where bell boots would go. About a half hour with those things and he was picking his feet up, paying attention to where he put them down and was well on the road to understanding that he had to pay at least a LITTLE bit of attention to what he was stepping on. Now he is really sure-footed

I was amazed, and still don't really understand what happened there AG, but figured I should tell you in case someone you know has ever used those things. It was a good passive training tool that caused no stress and no chance of injury - and it worked!

"There is something about the outside of a horse...that is good for the inside of a man." ~Winston Churchill~

Edited by - Arenadirt on 10/23/2013 3:46:14 PM
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2013 :  7:09:48 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought of setting up some timbers/logs for Thunder to step over as I lunge him. I would try them first walking and then trying to trot him over them. Having said that, however, the paddock where I lunge him isn't particularly level/smooth ground. It has some dips and rises (just like you'd find on a trail I suppose), so I wondered how safe that might be setting it up that way?

AD, I was thinking along those lines today, wondering what I could put on his feet to get him to pick them up. Didn't want to put anything on that would harm him (i.e., chains), but I like the idea of rattles/bells. How did you get them to stay on? Were they on Seven's bell boots?

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2013 :  7:10:27 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, Thunder didn't stumble a single time today when I lunged him. Yay!

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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Arenadirt
Trainer

USA
670 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2013 :  12:36:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit Arenadirt's Homepage Send Arenadirt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by appygirl

I thought of setting up some timbers/logs for Thunder to step over as I lunge him. I would try them first walking and then trying to trot him over them. Having said that, however, the paddock where I lunge him isn't particularly level/smooth ground. It has some dips and rises (just like you'd find on a trail I suppose), so I wondered how safe that might be setting it up that way?

AD, I was thinking along those lines today, wondering what I could put on his feet to get him to pick them up. Didn't want to put anything on that would harm him (i.e., chains), but I like the idea of rattles/bells. How did you get them to stay on? Were they on Seven's bell boots?



As I recall (it has been about ten years) they just clipped together like a bracelet. Sandy is at the NFR in Las Vegas, but when she gets back I'll try o get a photo... might not be a bad idea to put them on Sev again and see what he does.

He absolutely MURDERED a set of X-formed lope-overs in an NSHA trail class last summer. That was right he "slicked" a serpentine with poles laying between the cones - while everyone else was riding in big "S" patterns, I asked Seven to nicely side-pass over the poles, which he did perfectly without so much as a touch... the crowd yelled "show off!", then Seven proceeded to pretty much destroy the lope-overs ... I was laughing too hard to get upset with him, but that is NOT what judges want to see!!

"There is something about the outside of a horse...that is good for the inside of a man." ~Winston Churchill~
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