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 Mustang Trim/Natural Trim vs Traditional Trim
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2008 :  9:14:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hook

I don't like the trim at all. I suggest that it may be in Joe's best interest to get the Natural Trim Guy over as soon as it can be arranged.



That being said I would like to add that Joe will need to be trimmed more often than every 6 weeks to get those chips under control. Ramsey suggested that every 4 weeks is required to get the best advantage from the natural trim.

Your farrier has not done a a bad job considering the condition of Joe's hooves, he has left lots of sole and from your photos the angles look okay, but I think that Joe can benefit from a Natural style trim.

I don't see any evidence of founder and Joe's soles look pretty normal and healthy. He should not be sensitive or lame on those feet.

The other thing that I would recommend is that you read the posts regarding ration balancers and consider using it for your guys. Ideally you should talk to an equine nutritionist who will recommend some tests on your hay and help you with a diet that will promote healthier hooves ( and overall health) for both of your guys. Most farriers and a lot of vets will not have the same level of knowledge as a trained equine nutritionist.

And Harv is right, the feet of different horses in the same conditions have different looking feet. My addition would be that different horses have different nutritional needs that sometimes require different diets to optimize their health.

I also agree with Harv that there are some conditions where shoeing is a must for the health of the horse.

You might also invest in a pair of hoof boots like Old Macs so you can take Joe on the ride.

Good luck and let us know how things end up.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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andalusn
Beginning Rider



142 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2008 :  9:24:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit andalusn's Homepage Send andalusn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If there is concern that the foot has internal construction issues your vet should be brought into the discussion and if indicated x-rays should be taken and discuss the best option for the horse. Maybe the vet, the owner and whichever farrier involved in current or future foot care can all meet, review the views and establish the best course of treatment/trimming. A team approach would be in the best interest of the horse. You will have your known objectives and can measure the results. Possibly bloodwork is indicated. Step back and look at the bigger picture.

Laurie
Andalusians NW,
Ridgefield, WA
Green+Green=black & blue(treasure the knowledge of an experienced horse)
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2008 :  9:41:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by andalusn

If there is concern that the foot has internal construction issues your vet should be brought into the discussion and if indicated x-rays should be taken and discuss the best option for the horse. Maybe the vet, the owner and whichever farrier involved in current or future foot care can all meet, review the views and establish the best course of treatment/trimming. A team approach would be in the best interest of the horse. You will have your known objectives and can measure the results. Possibly bloodwork is indicated. Step back and look at the bigger picture.



Good Idea.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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Termite
Advanced Rider

369 Posts

Posted - 08/28/2008 :  11:53:13 PM  Show Profile Send Termite a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ILoveJoe

Like Hook said you need a new farrier. When you keep a horse barefoot his feet has to get conditioned to the type of ground you ride him on. Just like when I was a kid, the last day of school the shoes came off and walking on grass was okay but on gravel it hurt for a couple of weeks till my feet toughened up. If Joe is always on sod he will be ouchy when he walks on stoney ground.

Termite
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ILoveJoe
Clinician



USA
2499 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2008 :  12:46:59 AM  Show Profile Send ILoveJoe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hook

I don't like the trim at all. I suggest that it may be in Joe's best interest to get the Natural Trim Guy over as soon as it can be arranged.





I don't like it either.

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ILoveJoe
Clinician



USA
2499 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2008 :  01:33:57 AM  Show Profile Send ILoveJoe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would consider boots in special circumstances, but never shoes. I have never been a fan of shoes even when I had thoroughbreds, we would pull shoes and turn out when ever we could, and the horses always seemed to move more freely barefoot. Plus the thought of driving a nail into the hoof....can't do it.

From everything I am reading, the health of the hoof hinges on it's ability to move freely, unhindered by metal. The sole and the heels make passive contact with the ground and when in movement that allows the blood to be pumped keeping everything healthy. Also what I have read in Pete Rameys book is that often horses feet need to be trimmed less with the natural trim. When I bought Joe, his feet hadn't been trimmed in about 6 months. The owners grandson or something would come into town occasionally from Colorado and trim Joe. Since I have owned Joe he has gotten trimmed every 6 weeks.

In the past with other farriers I have used, the comments were always how hard Joe's feet were. I dredged up an old photo of a young boy trimming Joe, Joe's toe and heel were all about the same length after this kid was done, it looked like Joe had blocks on his feet. This poor little guy sweated bullets trying to trim Joe's feet, he had to really exert pressure with both hands on the nippers to get through the hoof.





I will be interested in what this new farrier has to say about their feet, and I will certainly look into ration balancer or even a good supplement. I used Hoof and Coat by Farnam when I first bought Joe and I liked the results. Joe feet were rough when I bought him, but ironically not as as bad as they are now. I don't think I would have bought Joe with his feeting looking the way they do now.

Getting the vet and farrier to collaborate is certainly a good idea.

Thanks everyone for your input. I will keep you updated once I get the new farrier out.

Edited by - ILoveJoe on 08/29/2008 01:37:33 AM
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2008 :  05:52:59 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ILoveJoe



I brought up to my farrier my concerns about Joe's feet and how much worse they are compared to Rocky. I asked if there were any vitamin deficiences or other concerns that could cause so much difference in Joe's feet this year in comparison to other more dry years. He hemmed and hawed and went on trimming Joe. I waited a few minutes just in case he was still thinking and then asked again. He said Joe is carrying more weight than Rocky so he is doing more damage to his feet. He didn't know about vitamin deficiency, I should check with a vet. He said what Joe needs is less flies and cooler weather.
<SNIP!!>



ILJ, I am FAR from an expert on anything to do with horses, and I have not read the rest of this thread. However, I can't even imagine my farrier having that kind of a response. First of all, "carrying more weight than Rocky"?? Well, a Draft carries more weight than a Mini, but aren't their feet sort of proportionate to the weight they carry? And what Joe needs is less flies and cooler weather...

Arrrrrgh! That would have done it for me. I don't expect a farrier to know everything a vet knows, but he sure as <expletive> ought to know what can cause various hoof problems. I mean, my hair cutter knows what vitamin and nutritional deficiencies will cause various hair texture/growth problems. A certain manicurist I know would find it challenging to choose between a mirror at the bottom of a swimming pool or breathing air, but she knows what can cause dry, brittle (or soft) nails.

If you like other things about this farrier (maybe I'm being hard on him) I'd opt for the meeting with vet, but half my motivation would be so I could tell the vet that you'd like to get his reading on how much this guy knows beyond ABC clipping and filing. I know if my job were to be horse's feet, I'd be knowing everything there is to know about them, from what goes into the mouth on down.
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ILoveJoe
Clinician



USA
2499 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2008 :  11:19:20 AM  Show Profile Send ILoveJoe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by OnTheWay

quote:
Originally posted by ILoveJoe



I brought up to my farrier my concerns about Joe's feet and how much worse they are compared to Rocky. I asked if there were any vitamin deficiences or other concerns that could cause so much difference in Joe's feet this year in comparison to other more dry years. He hemmed and hawed and went on trimming Joe. I waited a few minutes just in case he was still thinking and then asked again. He said Joe is carrying more weight than Rocky so he is doing more damage to his feet. He didn't know about vitamin deficiency, I should check with a vet. He said what Joe needs is less flies and cooler weather.
<SNIP!!>



ILJ, I am FAR from an expert on anything to do with horses, and I have not read the rest of this thread. However, I can't even imagine my farrier having that kind of a response. First of all, "carrying more weight than Rocky"?? Well, a Draft carries more weight than a Mini, but aren't their feet sort of proportionate to the weight they carry? And what Joe needs is less flies and cooler weather...

Arrrrrgh! That would have done it for me. I don't expect a farrier to know everything a vet knows, but he sure as <expletive> ought to know what can cause various hoof problems. I mean, my hair cutter knows what vitamin and nutritional deficiencies will cause various hair texture/growth problems. A certain manicurist I know would find it challenging to choose between a mirror at the bottom of a swimming pool or breathing air, but she knows what can cause dry, brittle (or soft) nails.

If you like other things about this farrier (maybe I'm being hard on him) I'd opt for the meeting with vet, but half my motivation would be so I could tell the vet that you'd like to get his reading on how much this guy knows beyond ABC clipping and filing. I know if my job were to be horse's feet, I'd be knowing everything there is to know about them, from what goes into the mouth on down.



OTW, I felt the same way when he said that about Joe. I was just like blink, blink. Joe is shorter in height and length than Rocky

AND the clincher for me was kinda this...I have such a HARD time talking to this guy. Conversation is so difficult outside of the weather. SO this time my hubby was there and this guy was all chatty! Of course still couldn't answer MY questions unless I asked a few times.

I don't think you are being too hard on him, I have been feeling the same way.
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2008 :  5:53:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It will be interesting to see if a natural trim will help Joe.

Although, I tend to agree with hmeyer; stomping at insects, the ground being hard, hooves growing faster at this time of year, and a horse being overweight, will all take their toll, no matter what. Currently, the only one of my 3 horses having decent-looking feet is the one I keep shod in front. May have to start doing the same for the other two, even though they only infrequently go anywhere.

ILJ, please keep an open mind about shoes. I would much rather keep a horse barefoot, but it just doesn't work for some horses. When it does, that is great. Also, you mentioned wanting to go on a ride this fall. If you decide to keep Joe barefoot, boots on front would give him some protection while trail riding.

EZ2SPOT
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ILoveJoe
Clinician



USA
2499 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2008 :  12:27:58 PM  Show Profile Send ILoveJoe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have finished both Rameys and Jacksons books and have been doing quite a bit of online reading as well. Interestingly all the natural hoofcare articles I am reading, and this information was also in the books, state that wet conditions are the worse condtions for your horses feet. Ideal conditions are dry and hard/slightly rocky.

I also found a great website that has a lot of valuable information as well as great pictures. From this website I was able to compare photos of Joe's feet with photos of other horses. I can see where Joe's white line is stretched (NOT GOOD) and how his hooves have been breaking off to the point where his hoof wall SHOULD have been trimmed at.

Here is the website. The photos I am referring to are on the DO TRIM page about halfway down.

http://www.barefoothorse.com/

The natural hoofcare lady is coming on the 7th. I also emailed her the link to this post so she can get a preliminary on what has been going on with my guys and I hope she can take time out of her busy schedule to join the forum and contribute also.

On the website above, there is a page about FLARES....yikes! I was right to be concerned about them. I am confident that the new person will take good care of the issues I have with Joe and Rocky.

Of course I will post photos before and after.




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walkinthewalk
Advanced Rider



USA
215 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2008 :  4:18:26 PM  Show Profile Send walkinthewalk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's a LOT of great conversation and input on this thread

I am so glad my grandpap gave me farrier's tools for my 12th Christmas a gazillion years ago and showed me how to use them. I would not want to be starting out today, trimming hooves because there is so much information and a lot of it is conflicting.

My grandpap would be close to 120 by now - lol lol The principles of hoof trimming that he taught me are on the border of today's "natural timmer".

He taught me to "round those toes off a litte bit", but not the agressive Mustang Roll that we see pictures of and that the Pete Ramey student MADE me do on Joker in spite of my skittishness

I had always looked at the hoof in two pieces (front and back), but the Pete Ramey student showed me to look at it in 5 pieces (2 heels, 2 side sections,and the toe. Correct each one separately but yet blending all the sections together to make the whole hoof. If that makes sense, I am not good at explaining things

He also explained that Joker wears his hind hooves in an unusual fashion because he is slightly sickle-hocked. That causes a horse to "twist" his hoof. Joker's right hind frog would grow clear over the outside heel if I didn't keep it cut back, the way the natural trimmer showed me to do (as needed only).

"ILOVEJOE", when I looked at Joe's hoof pictures after only 4 weeks, I would have guessed he had gone closer to 8 - 10 weeks without being trimmed.

I have hoof pictures of a couple horses that belong to a good friend in WPA who is her own natural trimming farrier. She and hubby do a lot of hard trail riding all over this U.S.A. If they see something interesting off in the distance and over the rocks, by golly, they just make their own trail.

The pictures are after three weeks of riding in Colorado before she filed the Boys down. They are in a Word document that is in Rich-text format. I have to figure out how to make them compatible with Photobucket.

She used Cavello's Simple Boots for a year, then reached a point where the boots spent all their time hooked to the saddle horn. Not every horse can meet that kind of tough goal, but her two SSH's have hooves like goats to begin with - lol




I file my horses down every two weeks because:

1. Duke is metabolic and Joker is trying his darndest to head that way and I think their hooves need to be closely monitored.
2. I have enough arthritis in both hands that pulling the nippers this time of year is almost impossible.

Everyone's hooves are a healthy, pliable hard, not cement block hard to where the hooves have a lot of chunking, chipping, and peeling; plus hooves without a sufficient amount of moisture in them can also allow for heel cracks that can lame a horse up if not cared for. I saw horses when I lived in SoCal's low desert, that had heel cracks so bad, they could not hold a shoe and the farrier wouldn't even attempt to shoe them. Just told the owner to get the horses healed up and call him then

The folks that want to maintain a barefoot horse and are not able to do the work themselves, my thought is those horses should be trimmed every 4-5 weeks.

Accept for an 1/8th inch around the frog I NEVER touch the soles unless it is obvious they want to shed. Duke has grown big callous's on both front soles that both myself and my Pete Ramey mentor feel is needed due to his laminitic condition.

The 1/8th inch my grandpap taught me to trim around the frog, is what the Pete Ramey book says to do. Three more gold stars for one of the men I miss most in this life

Rusty is slightly clubbed on the left front and I have always had trouble keeping the toe cracks in check until cooler weather and moister ground. The natural trimmer showed me some tricks and I was doing really well until August - lol lol Rusty has very slight toe cracks because I have trouble keeping him balanced, so I give his fronts a slight filing every week. I also spray a mix of water/white vinegar/clorox in those cracks a couple times a week to keep any fungal infections at bay.

Hoof and skin fungal infections ----- I could write a book

I do not pay one bit of attention to the dry/wet/pasture/no pasture theories.

Except for five years in SoCal's low desert, my horses have always been on pasture during every season of the year.

It is I who makes the adjustment, in that I pay attention to the specific needs of each horse's hooves according to what the weather is doing.

As someone has already said, every horse's hoof maintenance is different. Some hooves babysit themselves, while others can "go south" while you're looking at them

I would be ecstatic if I could clone my 13.3H Arab's over-sized one hooves onto all three of my Walkers. The only hoof issues Streeter has are the unusual wear because of his vertebra injury before I rescued him 15 years ago.

Diet is a lot more crucial than I used to think it was. Since I have gotten all my horses off oat/corn based grain and have started feeding them the same thing Duke-the-Metabolic-horse gets, their hooves have improved 100%. I also have always fed a good quality mixed grass hay; although the Arab has 30 bales of pure, locally grown, bermuda put back for the end of winter

At the very least, on my own personal experience, the best thing for any horse (mentally and physically) is to lose the Sweet Feed or anything with a noticeable amount of molasses.

I don't have recent pictures of anyone's hooves and I have yattered-on enough as it is. I will get pics the next time I trim, now that the weather has cooled down and I don't need to have The Boys standing in front of the tub fans that could blow us all into the next county if we weren't so portly
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Arenadirt
Trainer

USA
670 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2008 :  8:59:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Arenadirt's Homepage Send Arenadirt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We don't leave a farrier alone in the barn, ever. I watch and ask questions to the edge of annoyance. Both our previous (retired) and current farriers are very good, and their results are pretty similar. They are a huge resource, and at those prices I'll be da**ed if I won't milk them for information!

ILJ said: "WAAAAY back when I lived in Colorado, the farriers I used all did what looks just like the natural trim. They didn't call it that...they didn't call it anything, actually. It was just the way they did it."

I think that's still the way "they" do it. Looks like what ours get.
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ILoveJoe
Clinician



USA
2499 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  12:38:23 PM  Show Profile Send ILoveJoe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arenadirt

We don't leave a farrier alone in the barn, ever. I watch and ask questions to the edge of annoyance. Both our previous (retired) and current farriers are very good, and their results are pretty similar. They are a huge resource, and at those prices I'll be da**ed if I won't milk them for information!

ILJ said: "WAAAAY back when I lived in Colorado, the farriers I used all did what looks just like the natural trim. They didn't call it that...they didn't call it anything, actually. It was just the way they did it."

I think that's still the way "they" do it. Looks like what ours get.



Neither of my horses have ever been trimmed when I wasn't in attendance. I have always been fortunate that I could schedule my farriers visits to when I can attend.

Just for clarification, it was EZ that lived in Colorado.
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ILoveJoe
Clinician



USA
2499 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  1:36:48 PM  Show Profile Send ILoveJoe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The new farrier came yesterday and confirmed my fears about Joe's white line being stretched. She was very thorough and stopped to show me issues and explained why she was doing what she was doing AS she was doing it. A REFRESHING change of communication!

ALl of Joe's feet showed the stretched white line. Two of them showed bruising on the sole, and one of those (RB)also had live sole exposed in the toe area.

Before trimming she took the time to talk gently to each horse and let them sniff her thoroughly and all of her tools.

She really takes her time on each foot, but only takes the smallest amount off from underneath of the hoof using nippers. She takes more off from the top using rasp and finishes the rounded adges and the entire hoof with sandpaper.

She doesn't touch the frog at all and removed dry flaky sole until it wouldn't flake off any more. She trimmed the hoof wall down and shortened his bars to the height they should be.

She suggested it would be best for Joe to take him off any sugar in his diet, she suggested we take him off the Nutrena Safe Choice and put him on just a very small amount of plain oats and she also suggested flax seed and free choice Red Cal minerals.

Since our pastures have been so rich in red clover and alfalfa, we need to keep them off any of the fields that still have those legumes left in them.

We also discussed Black seed sunflowers and a M30 vitamin that she uses on her horses and she also stated that she uses DE (diatomaceous earth---food grade--) as a natural dewormer.

She will remove more and more flare each trim. Here are some of the photos of this trim.

LB



LB



LF



LF



RB



RB



RF



RF



LF before trim:



LF after trim:



LB before trim:



LB after trim:



For Rocky his left front showed some stretching on the white line, but that was his only foot. Interesting thing about that foot, when Rocky was about 7 months I noticed that the LF was slightly turning out and addressed it with the 2nd farrier and finally the guy I have been using for the past 3 years. These two farriers have all tried to 'correct' the leg by trimming (at my request). The first guy did such a terrible job, that Rocky's leg actually turned out more! I only used him once!

Most of Rocky's heels had 'rolled' a term I had never heard before. The new farrier told me that it was because the heels were 'probably' too long and showed me what she meant.

Rocky's LF before trim (none taken after):



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Peggysue
Beginning Rider



USA
50 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2008 :  3:01:31 PM  Show Profile Send Peggysue a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The M30 is suppose to be great stuff ... I woudl go with that before the oats ... the safe choice is actually lower in sugars adn starches then the oats...

DE has no backing and has actually been proven NOT TO work... I will have to dig for that info again ...

Peggy Sue
Zan Parrs Dry Doc(Sassy)
Dark River Music(Lazy)
BA Flying Leo(Moosa)
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2008 :  05:59:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the photos. It's always nice to see the before and after trims.

Looks like a pretty traditional conservative barefoot trim but not the Natural Horse Trim as illustrated in Pete Ramey's book. Is she AANHCP certified? It will be interesting to see how the hooves progress with her trimming style.

Did she explain why she used sandpaper on the exterior hoof walls? Not a common practise or one I am familiar with.

Good idea to limit pasture time and as for grains I am in favour of a ration balancer. Might be a good idea to consult with one of the Ration balancer nutritionists ( such as LLRanch)to get some professional advice.




Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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ILoveJoe
Clinician



USA
2499 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2008 :  10:19:29 PM  Show Profile Send ILoveJoe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hook

Thanks for the photos. It's always nice to see the before and after trims.

Looks like a pretty traditional conservative barefoot trim but not the Natural Horse Trim as illustrated in Pete Ramey's book. Is she AANHCP certified? It will be interesting to see how the hooves progress with her trimming style.

Did she explain why she used sandpaper on the exterior hoof walls? Not a common practise or one I am familiar with.

Good idea to limit pasture time and as for grains I am in favour of a ration balancer. Might be a good idea to consult with one of the Ration balancer nutritionists ( such as LLRanch)to get some professional advice.




She is certified with AANHCP and is a level 5 clinician.
http://www.naturalhooftrim.net/index.html

I got the impression that the trim seen in the books isn't going to happen in the first trimming, at least with my horses. She is working on correcting and strengthening Joe's feet right now. There were alot of times she had to stop and she explained why and showed me the issues where trimming more agressively would have made Joe a very sore boy.

The sandpaper is used to stimulate growth. That is not mentioned in the book. Apparantly since the last publication the finishing method may have been tweaked a bit. Here is another Certified Practioner's website and his list of tools needed for his clinics include sandpaper.
http://www.hooftrack.com/Clinics.html

She has Joe and Rocky on a 5 week trimming schedule and eventually will be on a 6 week schedule.

I am anxious to see how this progresses.




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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2008 :  05:02:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the links and info.

It will be neat to see how Joe and Rocky progress under her care.


Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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ILoveJoe
Clinician



USA
2499 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2008 :  8:17:31 PM  Show Profile Send ILoveJoe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I started the boys on rolled oats and will be adding flax seed and the black oil sunflowers. It is nice to see that the oats have slowed Joe down when cleaning up his feed. Usually he bolted the Safe Choice, then moseyed over to finish Rocky's. They are now finishing at the same time.

I will get some photos tomorrow, I noticed today that the profile of Joe's feet are totally different than before, I had focused on the close up of the hooves and the inside, but I can certainly tell a big difference in the shape when viewed from the side.

While bush hogging today I reflected on some things and it occurred to me that it was Joes RB foot that had live sole exposed and when the front was being trimmed by the former farrier, Joe had tried his best to get his back feet up under himself and off those back toes.

This is definetly a learning experience!
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 10/13/2008 :  9:30:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ILoveJoe

I started the boys on rolled oats and will be adding flax seed and the black oil sunflowers. It is nice to see that the oats have slowed Joe down when cleaning up his feed. Usually he bolted the Safe Choice, then moseyed over to finish Rocky's. They are now finishing at the same time.

I will get some photos tomorrow, I noticed today that the profile of Joe's feet are totally different than before, I had focused on the close up of the hooves and the inside, but I can certainly tell a big difference in the shape when viewed from the side.

While bush hogging today I reflected on some things and it occurred to me that it was Joes RB foot that had live sole exposed and when the front was being trimmed by the former farrier, Joe had tried his best to get his back feet up under himself and off those back toes.

This is definetly a learning experience!



Hi ILJ.

I guess I missed the logic behind switching Joe to a high carbohydrate grain like oats. I thought he had a weight problem and was possibly insulin resistant. Most folks would not recommend the addition of oats for horses in that situation. IMO a ration balancer which gives the balanced nutrition with out the calories and carbohydrates would be a much better choice.

Locking forward to the profile shots.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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ILoveJoe
Clinician



USA
2499 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2008 :  11:21:27 AM  Show Profile Send ILoveJoe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I couldn't get very good pictures yesterday, Joe kept stalking me and tying him up didn't give me enough light, so here we go for now.

It is pretty apparant to me that the flares on the front feet are lessened and the shape of the RF is looking more like I had imagined they would. The back feet really didn't change much due to the exposed sole.

RF in July:



RF Oct 15th:


Joe/Rocky July:



Joe/Rocky Oct 15th:



I have a call to my farrier about the oats vs safe choice... I have to admit I am really bad with absorbing verbal details. I tend to watch lips move and start thinking about something else. I like to take my husband along with me whenever I NEED to remember what is being told to me...ie dr's visits. But the diet change applied to Rocky as well as Joe.

I really liked the Safe Choice and as expensive as THAT was, the oats are more per 50 pound bag....add to that all the extras. WHEW! The Red-Cal the farrier uses is OMG expensive! Hubby us already complaining about the additional costs of this new farrier.

I also should state that the quantity of feed/oats the horses get is about 80oz. I use grain more along the lines of a treat when getting them to come in off the pasture. I started adding a handful of BOSS and a small amount of loose minerals. The feed store is out of Flax seed, but I definetly want to get them on the flax seed no matter what type of feed I end up giving.

As far as insulin resistance, Joe has not been tested and it has never been mentioned to me until you did. I have done some googling of it today and it seems a pretty prevalent issue in horses today and Joe certainly fits some of the criteria.

The education coninues....
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 10/16/2008 :  9:58:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks like the new trim is holding up well.

We think of the ration balancer as a vitamin/ mineral supplement that compliments the rest of our feed program, eliminating other grains and only requires two pounds per day.

We also feed free choice loose salt and loose mineral formulated for the grass or alfalfa hay we are feeding. Works well for us.

We like the reduced feed costs and how it also seems to cut down the vet bills and optimized their immune system and overall health including hoof structure. No other supplements or additive are required for our guys.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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Arenadirt
Trainer

USA
670 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2008 :  4:32:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit Arenadirt's Homepage Send Arenadirt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Again, I have to say THANK YOU DEers! This thread really helped kick me into action about non-traditional hoof care.

We found a woman in our area who is... amazing. Just ... amazing. She calls herself a "holistic trimmer" rather than "natural trim specialist". She has all the certs - AANHCP etc., but is more than a farrier/trimmer; she knows equine physiology inside and out. Came today ... I learned more from her in an hour than I have in all the hours spent in the barn with all other farriers combined.

The bad news: Seven's trim has been exactly what he doesn't need; it looks okay from a traditional standpoint but it's been exacerbating his conformational quirks (cowhockedness, righthandedness, elongated narrow feet etc). She put a trim on him that looks a lot like what I've seen of Ramey's photos - took the hoof walls almost off the ground, put the weight back on the sole, pillars and heels (I might be confusing terminology there), gave the toes a little more breakover.

Anyhow, the GOOD news is that she is certain that he'll never (barring another injury) need to wear shoes ever again. The relief is ... profound.

"There is something about the outside of a horse...that is good for the inside of a man." ~Winston Churchill~
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2008 :  11:11:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arenadirt

Again, I have to say THANK YOU DEers! This thread really helped kick me into action about non-traditional hoof care.

We found a woman in our area who is... amazing. Just ... amazing. She calls herself a "holistic trimmer" rather than "natural trim specialist". She has all the certs - AANHCP etc., but is more than a farrier/trimmer; she knows equine physiology inside and out. Came today ... I learned more from her in an hour than I have in all the hours spent in the barn with all other farriers combined.

The bad news: Seven's trim has been exactly what he doesn't need; it looks okay from a traditional standpoint but it's been exacerbating his conformational quirks (cowhockedness, righthandedness, elongated narrow feet etc). She put a trim on him that looks a lot like what I've seen of Ramey's photos - took the hoof walls almost off the ground, put the weight back on the sole, pillars and heels (I might be confusing terminology there), gave the toes a little more breakover.

Anyhow, the GOOD news is that she is certain that he'll never (barring another injury) need to wear shoes ever again. The relief is ... profound.



Congratulations on finding a qualified Barefoot trimmer. It sounds a lot like the trim I have used with good success on our guys for the last year or so. If you could post a picture or two it would add to the knowledge base of the forum.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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Arenadirt
Trainer

USA
670 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2008 :  10:30:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit Arenadirt's Homepage Send Arenadirt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hook
Congratulations on finding a qualified Barefoot trimmer. It sounds a lot like the trim I have used with good success on our guys for the last year or so. If you could post a picture or two it would add to the knowledge base of the forum.

Aaaaw SHUCKS - another tough assignment. Guess I owe to the community. Should have gotten some "before" shots, too late now. She only did a very minor first adjustment - gave the toes more breakover, leveled the walls with the sole and took down the sides where they were pushing the coronary bands up. Trying to get his elongated feet more round. It looks worlds different to me, but then I've been worrying about that boy's feet so much. Going in an hour to cut cows in the freezing wind... will report back. Thanks again for all your encouragement and knowledge!
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