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 Purdue...the Details
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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2007 :  7:12:13 PM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As most of you know, Joe went back to Purdue on Feb. 9 for his 30 day check for gastric ulcers. I really came close to rescheduling when I checked the temp Friday morning. It was 14F! Next week didn't look any better and we may have some heavy snow at the beginning of the week with continued cold weather the rest of the week so I opted to make an attempt at least.

I had wrestled with what blankets... how many... what order.. all night then DUH! the porch light flickered and I realized that it would be better if I didn't take the heavy blanket off so I put the other waterproof blanket on over it plus the hood and the shipping boots. There wasn't much of Joe that was exposed! I even put a fly mask on him so the wind wouldn't hit his eyes. I usually always put a mask on anyway just to protect his eyes from dust, bugs & debris.

I stopped about every hour to check him just to make sure he hadn't turned into a popsickle. He was toasty under the 2 blankets and warm under the hood and boots. I figured what little that was left exposed would have warm blood pumping through so there was little danger of frost bite. I checked his ears & muzzle and they were cool but certainly not COLD.

I watched the temp drop from the warm 14 degrees down to 6 degrees as we got into the snow cover. It was 9F when we got to Purdue at about 11:45! BRRRRRR!! Joe seemed fine when we unloaded then it was a race to get all the clothes off of him once we were inside in the heat!

We had a new student assistant this time that took Joe's history. She was VERY YOUNG! I swear they are getting kids from middle school now. Joe was a bit shy about getting on the scale so we didn't push him but waited till he was sedated! He weighed 1296 this time. Of course, he hadn't eaten for over 24 hours and hadn't had a lot of water either and had pooed a few times so I'm not sure that he actually lost. (He was 1335 in Jan.)



Purdue is a great facility but is a teaching hospital so the students get to do some things. One of which was try to stick Joe with the sedative. It took a while for this gal to find the vein and Joe was getting a bit irritated! There were several observing and a real vet watching every move and suggested that she put the needle in then attach the syringe. I wasn't too worried until the gal sucked in a bunch of air into the syringe! I was ready to grab her arm but the vet got her straightened out and Joe finally got his "happy place" drugs.



You can see the monitor and Dr. Levy watching it. It was simply AMAZING to watch! They inserted the scope into his nose and through the esophagus into the stomach. One of the vets explained everything to me as the scope progressed.



This is the before pic. I'll try to 'splain!

Top left: This pic is Joe's throat. The epiglottis that protects the trachea is visible near the top and the esophagus is below it. Notice the growth on the right side.

Top right: There is a LOT in this pic. The black line in the lower right quadrant is the endoscopy coming out of the esophagus. It curled around to take the picture of the bots on a line in the upper half of the pic. Below them and running at an angle are the ulcers.

Bottom left: Bots in the stomach!!

Bottom right: Pretty much the same pics as the top right but from a different angle. The black area on the lower right is the pyloric sphincter which allows stomach contents to enter the duodenum.



The After Pics!

Top left: The throat and the lump. Dr. Levy said that he is not concerned with it and that it had not changed. This pic is taken from little bit closer and slightly different angle so it's hard to compare them.

Bottom left: This shows the line between the 2 parts of the stomach. The "ridge" looks weird to me but Dr. Levy assured me that all was normal and the stomach looks good.

Top right: Where the ulcers were! The bits of white goo is saliva. Dr. Levy used a syringe of water to squirt down a tube attached to the endoscopy to wash the saliva away so the details could be seen. You could see the water squirt into the stomach and the technician would try to move the scope to put the water where it needed to go.

Bottom right: This is cool! Notice the bump almost in the middle of the pic. That is the bile duct which is just inside the duodenum! Bile was secreted 2 or 3 times while we watched.

WHEW! I hope I got all the parts & pieces identified correctly. It's been a LONG time since I taught anatomy.

Once we were done, it was time to dress Joe again... boots first, heavy blanket, lighter blanket & hood and out to the trailer before he got too hot! He sure was happy to see a manger full of hay. LOL!

I was SHOCKED at the $85 fee! I had to ask if there was a "one" in front of the eight. The temp had warmed up to 14 there then dropped to 11 out of the city but began to rise and was 28 when we got home. Joe made the trip just fine but sure was glad to get all his clothes off when he got home. I let him roll then put the heavy blanket back on.

Joe is still yawning at times but not nearly as often as he was and only when he's waiting to be fed so I'm not too concerned with it. Once it warms up, I'll have his teeth floated. I just didn't want to sedate him when it's so friggin COLD!

I still have no explanation for the blood and weird crystals in his urine. The only thing that I can think of is that he was partially blocked by those beans that I missed. The vets didn't think that was the problem but after I cleaned him, I didn't notice any symptoms.

I hope no one else has to go through what we have but perhaps Joe's history will help with a diagnosis for anyone that does. Thanks to all for all of the support, suggestions and well wishes over the past months. Ya'll are great!

edited to add that the before pics were taken on Jan. 9, 07 and the after pics were taken on Feb. 9, 07

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~

Edited by - PaintGal on 02/11/2007 09:23:08 AM

ILoveJoe
Clinician



USA
2499 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2007 :  7:28:10 PM  Show Profile Send ILoveJoe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is amazing! Joe looks all squeaky clean inside.
Did the vet have you doing the safeguard wormer 2x's per day for 5 days?
He did not have any bots in him on this trip did he?
Poor Joe, he was a pin cushion for that tech in training. He did not look to pleased in that photo.
Thanks for sharing your experience with us. I hope none of us have to go through that, but we all have horses right, who knows what can happen!




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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2007 :  7:28:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very educational, and thanks for sharing your experiences! It looks as though Purdue did a wonderful job of diagnosing and treating Joe, too.

EZ2SPOT
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giddyupmorgan
Trainer



846 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2007 :  8:08:29 PM  Show Profile Send giddyupmorgan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great job PG. What type of diet will you have to follow now so the ulcers don't come back.

Keeping The Kids In a Saddle and Out of Trouble
Giddyup
"Holy Moly I'll Buy What They're Selling" LJD (Get A Little Mud On The Tires)


Morgan's riding log
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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2007 :  8:53:41 PM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I used Quest to worm Joe the last time. When we were there in January, I asked about rotating wormers thinking they'd hand me a list of what to use when. I was pretty surprised when I was told that the research now seemed to support using the same wormer each time until it became ineffective then to switch to another. I think it was Dr. Levy that gave me this info. He said that it was now thought that switching wormers may cause more resistant worms.

Giddy> We're not sure that Joe's ulcers were caused by his diet. He was getting a minimal amount of grain to begin with but I've switched him to Gro'nWin and Ultimate Finish and no grain.

Since Joe doesn't fit the "typical" horse with ulcers, who knows what may have caused these. I don't think it was diet or feeding. He's not alone, he's not in training or being shown... perhaps they were caused by the pain from those dang abcesses or maybe IF his urine flow was blocked or restricted that caused enough discomfort to result in the ulcers. There's no way to know for sure. They suggested that I might use the preventative dose (1/2 the full dose) a few days before, then during and a couple of days after a weekend trail ride. Another option would be to NOT use it and see if he developed more symptoms.

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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beccajane
Trainer



USA
985 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2007 :  11:23:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit beccajane's Homepage Send beccajane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This was really interesting! Thank you for sharing the pics and filling us in with all of the details! I would not be hesitant to use Purdue, thanks to your sharing of information. That's what is great about this forum....people are kind enought to share experiences and pictures. I feel like I was right there with you and Joe. AND I learned a lot! Thanks again!
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  06:27:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow Karen. Thanks for sharing those pictures and the whole experience.

I know we have all benefited. I hope this puts an end to all Joe's miscellaneous health problems. You have a truly exceptional horse in Joe. Here's a great big hug from the Hooks
for Joe and you for the patience and persistence to see this through.

The other thing we have learned through this is that a lot more horses have ulcers than is traditionally thought, up to 80%. There is also no easy to identify profile for ulcers and the only way to rule them out is the procedure that you have went through with Joe.

Sometimes the most cost effective way to eliminate ulcers as a possible cause is to use the generic ulcer medicine for the prescribed period and evaluate the results. If the symptoms go away chances are the ulcer diagnosis was correct. There does not seem to be any side affects to the ulcer medication according to the Vets and our experience.


Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  08:36:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for sharing Joe's experience with us. I sure learned a lot.
It may be the "lighting", but the after pictures look much pinker and more healthy than the before. The first picture sums up Joe's feelings on novice vet students. Glad Joe is doing well. I hope to ride with you and the now famous Joe in the coming year!

Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......
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paintedbliss
Trainer



USA
618 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  09:07:29 AM  Show Profile Send paintedbliss a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad everything turned out well. I had heard the same thing about wormers recently from a vet. I had always rotated them, but i think i will try the suggestion of keeping one product.
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  10:50:34 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, what an experience. I'm glad that everything went so well.

I am amazed about the worming info. I had been giving my horses the same wormer every time and had been doing this for years when my vet said I should rotate. I've now been rotating wormers for the last two or three years... 2 wormers rotated each time I wormed my horses... as my vet suggested. And now they are saying not to do this? I know I'll be getting in contact with my vet and see what he says about this and then compare notes before making a decision, but I trust Purdue 100%.

I had to laugh at the part about the students practicing on Joe. I know I went through this when I had Dove there almost 8 years ago for heaves. For those of you who may not know; Dove got to the point where he couldn't breath and eat at the same time. I kept calling my vet, and he didn't realize how serious Dove's condition was. By the time he came out to see Dove for himself, he was shocked! Purdue literally saved Dove's life.

But back to the student thing... The last time Dove was there for his final checkup, about 6 students came in while Dr. Cuetil (I know I butchered the spelling. The man is a Frenchman.) explained what Dove was going through and his ailment. All at the same time, 6 stethoscopes (sp?) were on Dove... 3 to a side... and Dove just stood there with this slightly worried look on his face. It was all I could do to keep from laughing out loud. The whole thing just struck me as funny.

Purdue is a great place, and I'd never hesitate to take any of my horses there if there was a serious problem.

Karen; I'm so happy for you. Hopefully, all your problems with Joe are in the past, and you can start looking forward to many happy miles out on the trails. Of course, if you want company, Vicki & I will be happy to be there to share in the experience.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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giddyupmorgan
Trainer



846 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2007 :  12:18:54 PM  Show Profile Send giddyupmorgan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
PG and all others. I just found my news letter from the Vet (Three Oaks Equine) that helped with Flip-Flop.

Back in Oct. they held a gastroscopy clinic. They had 16 horses that were evaluated for gastric ulcer disease. 7 out of the 16 had some degree of the disease. Almost 50%. Recommended treatment GASTROGARD. The horses that showed signs were show horses, young horses in training and guess what else. Yup, trail horses.

I don't ever want to get into the diagnosing and treating thing without Vet help. Just glad we can share this info with each other so we can recognize the symptoms and respond in a timely manner.

This letter also had a reminder for worming. They still recommend a rotation although its heavy on Ivermectin. They even sell a yrs package deal like VV and some of the other mail orders. Will ask about her thoughts next time she is out.

Stay warm and wish for Spring!
Marty



Keeping The Kids In a Saddle and Out of Trouble
Giddyup
"Holy Moly I'll Buy What They're Selling" LJD (Get A Little Mud On The Tires)


Morgan's riding log

Edited by - giddyupmorgan on 02/11/2007 3:12:24 PM
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  09:26:41 AM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message  Reply with Quote
PG, glad to hear that Joe has responded so well to his ulcer treatment. Those pics were absolutely fabulous, showing great detail in how well Joe has healed. I presume there are no more follow-ups? Did the vet speculate on what the growth in Joe's stomach may be?

Regarding the worming issue, vets here in KY have been recommending non-rotation of wormers for a coulple of years now for the specific reason the Purdue vet stated. When you step back and think about it, it just makes sense. Everything in life evolves, and it only makes sense that the parasites will become resistant to the drugs in order to perpetuate. Parasitial resistance to wormers is very similar to the super bug strains of bacteria from overuse of antibiotics.


Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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FLOOPER
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2493 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2007 :  10:58:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit FLOOPER's Homepage Send FLOOPER a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Paint...I think this takes "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth." to new heights--or in this case, new depths!!~ Thanks for sharing...very fascinating. And glad to hear that Joe seems to be improving. Keep up the great posts!!!

Flooper

"I'm a man. I can change. If I have to. I guess."
The Man's Prayer from the Red Green Show
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