Daily Equine Forum Visit Horse Saddle Shop Read Horse Saddle Shops Blog Horse Saddle Shop Twitter Horse Saddle Shop Facebook Image Map
Daily Equine Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics |Recent Messages | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Caring and Owning Horses
 Horse Training
 Pushy and/or Brat
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

thomasblue
Tenderfoot

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2006 :  08:12:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit thomasblue's Homepage Send thomasblue a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Stormie

One thing I haven't seen yet on this board is the 3(or 5) second rule. Basicly what it means is that you have 3-5 seconds after the horse does something wrong to get after them about it. Really I guess it could be 3-5 seconds to correct him also but what most trainers mean with it is that you have 3-5 seconds to make the horse thing that you are geint rip them to pieces. This is NOT done with abuse but your tone of voice and body actions.

Say a horse bites at you. You have 3-5 seconds to make him think you are a boss mare that is going to skin him alive. For 3-5 seconds you can yell at him, wave your hands, make him back off. It doesn't matter what you say to him, they don't understand that anyway. You could sing Happy birthday to him and as long as you sound mean and evil he gets the point. After the 3-5 seconds you stop totally, relax your body, loose any anger you had and act as if nothing happened. I thin Lyons was the first to put them into the main stream but it works as long as you follow the 3-5 seconds, don't abuse the animal and don't over use it. The first time you use it on a young horse is just rolling on the ground funny because they get this "O my god what just happened" big eyed look to them. Then they sneak looks at you like "Are you ok, do you need your drugs or something."

This method really gets your point across but allows you to go on with what you where doing. There is no real rule that you can't hit a horse. Some are dead set against it(I'm not if that is what is needed) but really I think that the 3 second rule is not the place for it, at least not as a normal part of it. Your voice and body is more then enough for most of them. Yelling is not a bad thing. In fact it is a great way to get a point across without flapping your hands or hitting. Yelling in anger and fear is not the best since that does come into the sound of it. If it's what it takes to get away from a horse that is trying to hurt you then yes but the 3 second I'm going to kill you rule should ideal be done when you are relaxed but are trying to tell the horse you are mad.

Go to Top of Page

thomasblue
Tenderfoot

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2006 :  08:22:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit thomasblue's Homepage Send thomasblue a Private Message
Just an update on Midnight...He's still a challenge but so far going the right direction.

We don't have any luck with any form of hitting or violent movements but he's stopped charging out of the stall; now his latest is to toss his head around when trying to put on the halter. My husband tried yelling at him like noted but he just got hyper and worse. Next he tried by waiting him out and/or rubbing his head and talking to him first; things went a little better. We've found that when he's bad (like shoving us or not standing still in the cross-ties); if we take the time to IMMEDIATELY turn him in tight circles and then go back to what we were doing he's very compliant with our wishes...including picking up his feet.

Does anyone have recommendations on other similar training techniques?? ie Parelli, Clinton Anderson, or otherwise. So far we need some additional ideas on the head tossing.

As you can tell we've decided to try and work with this til spring and then we'll decide what we're going to do.

Again thanks for all the comments. One thing that I'm learning through all of this is that horses are just as much individualistic as people!!!
Go to Top of Page

Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2006 :  08:29:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
3-5 seconds is too LONG of a timeframe....watch your horse...where is his attention going during any 3-5 seconds? A barn cat may have caught his attention away from you, or a barn mate, food, etc. You have more like ONE second to correct a misbehavior, or to ask for the correct behavior. If you wait, or are delayed FIVE seconds, that horse's brain has moved onto other things and has no idea exactly WHAT behavior that YOU are trying to change. He/she probably wonders if he shouldn't look at that barn cat??? The human action has to be directly associated with the horse's behavior and by waiting/delaying 5 or even 3 seconds, you've lost that *window* of appropriate time.

-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"
Go to Top of Page

Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2006 :  11:27:13 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
Head tossing is different than pushing you around or invading your space. When you yell at a horse, it makes them tense. When a horse tenses up, the head goes up. In this case, you want the horse to relax so he'll lower his head. I just wrote a lengthy post on this under "training". You might want to read it. It's been awhile since I've read anything under that topic, but the situation was very similar. In this case, the horse must learn to relax and lower his head. I say this because a horse will raise his head when he feels threatened or is nervous about something or upset. A horse will lower his head only when he is relaxed and feels safe & secure... trusting his handler.

I'm off to read that other post I was talking about to make sure I've given the right advice.

Okay, I'm back, and I see that I need to make some adjustments to fit your problem.

Will he let you stand beside him in the stall without the halter on? Can you slip a rope around his neck so it is just behind his ears and his jaw? If you can hold him this way without him getting excited, I'd push lightly on his poll to ask him to lower his head. If he raises it, that's okay, and he'll probably do that the first few times. Keep after him until he lowers it even the tiniest fraction to get away from your hand and the pressure you are applying to the top of his head (the poll). Praise him highly every time he does it. Keep asking for him to lower it a little more each time until you can look at the top of his head while standing beside him. This will take time, and I wouldn't do it all in one setting. You can do it when you are grooming him or in the stall with him... anytime you are around him. Just ask him to dip his head a couple of times and praise him when he does it right.

Next, see if he'll let you put the halter on or around his neck like you did with the rope. Try rubbing his neck with the halter and try to bring it up onto his jaw. Make it quick but not jerky. Move it up toward his head and then bring it back in just a second or two. Once he accepts that, make it longer each time until you can hold the halter beside his head at his jaw. Then just try a little farther forward until he will let you hold it against the side of his face.

Go back to holding it around his neck and gradually do the same thing I just described but go up the top of the neck with the halter and try to hold it a second or two between his ears. Let him lower his head if he wants to, and praise him when he'll let you do this calmly. Then try and dangle it over his face, again, for a second or two. Once he's used to this, make the time longer and try letting the halter dangle to his nose. Once he's used to this, then I'd try to put the halter on his head.

All this takes time, and let's the horse know the halter won't hurt him and it's okay for you to approach him and put a halter on him. I sure hope this will help your problem. Good luck .

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown

Edited by - Red Hawk on 01/19/2006 12:02:59 PM
Go to Top of Page

thomasblue
Tenderfoot

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2006 :  11:56:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit thomasblue's Homepage Send thomasblue a Private Message
Oops...I forgot to mention... before my horse starts to toss his head, he lowers it all the way to the ground and then as you start to put the halter over his nose he pulls his head up and if your head or arm or whatever is in the way; you get shoved to the side. Once the halter is over his poll he stops all the fussing and is so quiet and obedient you can't believe that you got wacked by his head. I hope this clarifies this.
Go to Top of Page

Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2006 :  12:08:28 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by thomasblue

Oops...I forgot to mention... before my horse starts to toss his head, he lowers it all the way to the ground and then as you start to put the halter over his nose he pulls his head up and if your head or arm or whatever is in the way; you get shoved to the side. Once the halter is over his poll he stops all the fussing and is so quiet and obedient you can't believe that you got wacked by his head. I hope this clarifies this.



LOL! I finished editing my post before I read this one.

I think in this case, I'd still teach him to lower his head by cuing him from the poll. If he tries to raise his head when you try to put the halter on, ask him to lower it immediately, after you have taught him to lower it on cue. I'd do this several times and then try to put the halter on, again. Hopefully, he will get the message and keep his head where it belongs during haltering.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
Go to Top of Page

OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2006 :  5:34:54 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
I was fascinated by an RFD-TV segment and don't recall which trainer it was, but he said that if you put gentle pressure on either side of the poll (thumb and forefinger, one on each side of bump) that it somehow shoots out endorphins that relax the horse and he'll likely lower his head just from being relaxed. I tried it with Cloud and it seemed to work. On the other hand, she wasn't in a particularly hyper mood either. Anyone ever heard of that??
Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2006 :  01:17:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
SaddleTramp

You misunderstood what I meant. I didn't mean that you have 3 to 5 seconds to correct the horse, I meant you have 3 to 5 seconds of making the horse think you are going to kill him. The reaction has to be right way when the horse does something wrong but if you go beyond the 5 seconds of making him think you are going to skin him alive then you are taking it too far and you went from Boss horse to just a silly human yelling and flapping your unfeathered wings around. Also the point is really not to correct the animal....at least not what I think is correct. To correct is to set on the right path like telling a 1st grader that no 2 plus 3 is not 6 can you try again, or pointing someone to the post office when they are going the wrong way. This rule is more of a "You better listen up you pita because I'm boss and what I say goes" drill sergeant type of thing. It isn't meant to teach but to act as a boss horse sequel, ears back, leg raised but not pushed to the point of biting or kicking.



Thomasblue

Each horse is different so methods have to change to fit the case. Check out Anderson's methods that sounds close to what you are doing now. Is the head tossing to avoid the halter or to hurt you? What type of halter? If it's the buckle kind trying unbckling it and placing around the neck farther down and then sliding it up. You can do a driving away thing when he does this. If you go to put the halter on and he tosses his head, drive him away and around until he gets the point and then try again. Like with the circling he will learn that to misbehave is to work so he should start to get the hint that this is not good either. If he is doing it out of fear then rubbing his head is good but if it is a game of his it is rewarding the head tossing(if you do it after he starts tossing his head.
Go to Top of Page

Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2006 :  08:25:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
Got it, Stormie! ;) This slant, that I brought up, was a topic that came up at dog training a couple weeks ago as several of us also own horses. There is a misconception in parts of the dog and horse worlds that you have 5 seconds to "correct" the animal's behavior (pc, I know). As we all know, 5 seconds is a heck of a long time when considering how fast a brain can function...and how quickly attention can be lost.

-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"
Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2006 :  6:56:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Yep. Correction must be when they are doing it or right after other wise it is pointless. So many think that the animal is just going to know but really they act to your anger not really connecting it to the action. O' I'm no saint I will also point out the paper towel shreads and yell at the dog about it but I know it isn't doing any good other then to let me vent about it when I'm cleaning it up.
Go to Top of Page

fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2006 :  01:26:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
OTW, never read anything about the poll/endorphins but my horses love it... relax when rubbed or light massage there, esp. the TB who isn't the real affectionate type..so must be something to it.
Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2006 :  12:30:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
I don't know about the horses but I can make Harm(our yearling Bue Lingo Bull) roll his eyes back in his head by scratching his poll. If you scratch his withers he does this involuntary head jerk like a dog's back leg when you rub their belly.
Go to Top of Page

Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2006 :  07:14:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by thomasblue

Just an update on Midnight...He's still a challenge but so far going the right direction.

now his latest is to toss his head around when trying to put on the halter. My husband tried yelling at him like noted but he just got hyper and worse. Next he tried by waiting him out and/or rubbing his head and talking to him first; things went a little better. We've found that when he's bad (like shoving us or not standing still in the cross-ties); if we take the time to IMMEDIATELY turn him in tight circles and then go back to what we were doing he's very compliant with our wishes...including picking up his feet.

Does anyone have recommendations on other similar training techniques?? ie Parelli, Clinton Anderson, or otherwise. So far we need some additional ideas on the head tossing.

As you can tell we've decided to try and work with this til spring and then we'll decide what we're going to do.

Again thanks for all the comments. One thing that I'm learning through all of this is that horses are just as much individualistic as people!!!



Glad to hear the progress. Sounds like you are getting to know the horse and what works and what doesn't. I would get some information about basic ground work with a horse and move him through the basics of standing, walking and trotting and backing on command from the lead. Then work on movement away from pressure, ie move his shoulder, side, then hip away from you with a gentle touch. We use some taps with a dressage whip to reinforce the move away. If he longes then repeat the stop, walk, trot and lope on command. The more you work at having him respond to your commands the better he will be to handle all the time. Every time you ask the horse to do something you must insit that he pay attention and make an honest try. Start slow and be happy with small successes. React agressively with voice , gesture or a whack if you feel the horse is being agressive with you.
Continue the good work.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
Go to Top of Page

naddya819
Beginning Rider



USA
89 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2006 :  10:48:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit naddya819's Homepage Send naddya819 a Private Message

As far as a verbal correction, I like to use the word "Quit" with my horses, as it really sounds nothing like any other cue you might use. For example, "no" sounds too much like "whoa", and so on. I've noticed it's rather effective, and you can put a lot of force and venom into the word if you have to.

Live long, laugh hard, love horses.

Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2006 :  01:15:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
I use Leave It with the dogs...sometimes I forget and use it for the horses, the cattle, humans, the guy at work that always talks loud when I'm on the phone, the car and even the computer when it is acting up! lol
Go to Top of Page

OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2006 :  1:31:57 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by naddya819


As far as a verbal correction, I like to use the word "Quit" with my horses, as it really sounds nothing like any other cue you might use. For example, "no" sounds too much like "whoa", and so on. I've noticed it's rather effective, and you can put a lot of force and venom into the word if you have to.



I use a loud, brusk, deep-voiced, "HEY!" Cloud startles and straightens right up. "Quit" is good also, in fact better, because you're right, you can get a lot of venom in that word, lol. It's just not natural to me, but I do like it.

"Leave it" for my dog works great! She's a playful, bounding Boxer we adopted who's blind. When she wants to tell me she wants to go outside, she grabs a toy and races around in circles. (Either that or plants herself next to me and groans impatience in an amazingly human-annoyance sound). But when we go out, I want the toy left here because invariably she will drop it or lose it and then it'll drive her nuts, and this always happens during a storm. So before going through the door, I just say "Leave it. Leeeeeeeave it." And plunk. She drops it. "Okay, there it is, so now can we go out?" ROFL.

Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2006 :  1:59:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
My GSD is trained that she has Inside toys and Outside Toys and they don't go where they don't live. Sometimes she forgets herself but a few times she even turned around and put the toy back!!

She is a groaner too. Skye will flop her self down and Groan and moan like a pouting kid. I call her Drama Queen and that normally shuts her up for awhile. She has a ton of nick names and some aren't that nice.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Daily Equine Forum © 2000-2002 Snitz Communications Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.22 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000