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 Pre-Treated Lumber Toxic?
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luvmyhorse
Advanced Rider

USA
240 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  1:19:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit luvmyhorse's Homepage Send luvmyhorse a Private Message
My husband and I are finally finished replacing a 200 ft section of fence in the pasture and we decided to use pre treated lumber (posts and top railing) with the no-climb horse fence. I am now hearing that the substance that the wood is coated with can be toxic to animals. Has anyone ever heard this? I am now concerned about the horses even though I have not seen any evidence of them chewing on fence. I don't know what I would do if it is toxic since just 200 ft of fence was major $$$ and the project almost made my husband and I kill each other. Apparently we have a difference in opinion on everything.

Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  1:41:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
I'm not sure how many lumber manufacturers still use arsenic to treat, but it might not hurt to ask at the place where you purchased it. Maybe "google" and see what the lifespan is of arsenic, maybe it will deteriorate/evaporate/breakdown as the wood ages?

If in doubt, run a strand of hot wire to keep the horses away from the posts.

-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"

~~~~~~

When you work here, you can name your own salary. I named mine, "Louie".

~~~~~~

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Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  1:41:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
I'm not sure how many lumber manufacturers still use arsenic to treat, but it might not hurt to ask at the place where you purchased it. Maybe "google" and see what the lifespan is of arsenic, maybe it will deteriorate/evaporate/breakdown as the wood ages?

If in doubt, run a strand of hot wire to keep the horses away from the posts.

-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"

~~~~~~

When you work here, you can name your own salary. I named mine, "Louie".

~~~~~~

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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  4:06:55 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
We used treated lumber to build our stalls. Dove is a terrible wood chewer and can chew through a 2 X 6 in 2 or 3 days if I don't do anything to stop it. We've had several horses chew treated boards in our barn with no health problems whatsoever, and we've had horses here for almost 14 years. In my honost opinion, treated lumber is no health threat to horses.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  4:06:55 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
We used treated lumber to build our stalls. Dove is a terrible wood chewer and can chew through a 2 X 6 in 2 or 3 days if I don't do anything to stop it. We've had several horses chew treated boards in our barn with no health problems whatsoever, and we've had horses here for almost 14 years. In my honost opinion, treated lumber is no health threat to horses.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning
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Termite
Advanced Rider

369 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  4:15:03 PM  Show Profile Send Termite a Private Message
About three years ago arsenic was banned for use in treated lumber. When a horse chews wood he quite often is lacking something in his diet such as salt or minerals.
Termite
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Termite
Advanced Rider

369 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  4:15:03 PM  Show Profile Send Termite a Private Message
About three years ago arsenic was banned for use in treated lumber. When a horse chews wood he quite often is lacking something in his diet such as salt or minerals.
Termite
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  4:51:23 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Termite

About three years ago arsenic was banned for use in treated lumber. When a horse chews wood he quite often is lacking something in his diet such as salt or minerals.
Termite



I agree with you assessment, Termite, but Dove's problem is different. I feed him a complete feed because he's heavey & can't have hay. I also have to keep my horses in a dirt lot most of the time. This means Dove doesn't get to spend time eating hay. The result is that he has the urge to graze and if there isn't anything around to do that on, he will chew on anything. So, you could say that Dove is a special case. When he is out on pasture, he rarely chews wood. It's only when he's kept inside or is in the lot for a long period of time. I can't put my horses out on pasture all the time because it isn't big enough for my 2 horses. I wish I had more land, but I have to go with what I have .



"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  4:51:23 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Termite

About three years ago arsenic was banned for use in treated lumber. When a horse chews wood he quite often is lacking something in his diet such as salt or minerals.
Termite



I agree with you assessment, Termite, but Dove's problem is different. I feed him a complete feed because he's heavey & can't have hay. I also have to keep my horses in a dirt lot most of the time. This means Dove doesn't get to spend time eating hay. The result is that he has the urge to graze and if there isn't anything around to do that on, he will chew on anything. So, you could say that Dove is a special case. When he is out on pasture, he rarely chews wood. It's only when he's kept inside or is in the lot for a long period of time. I can't put my horses out on pasture all the time because it isn't big enough for my 2 horses. I wish I had more land, but I have to go with what I have .



"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning
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sbower
Clinician



1083 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  7:07:52 PM  Show Profile Send sbower a Private Message
Copper chrome arsenate (CCA) is being phased out in residential applications but is still available for agricultural applications, so it's quite possible that you bought CCA treated wood for fencing, especially if it was at a agricultural supply store...and while most sources say that it's not toxic to horses in my mind I'd be cautious. One report I saw said that a horse would have to eat a 6-foot long 2-by-4 board in a month to die from acute toxicity. Personally, I'd electrify the fence if your horse likes to crib. And make a note in the back of your mind that when the time comes to dispose of the fence (or section of it) that you should not EVER burn CCA treated wood.

Creosote (sp?) is also used as a preservative for wood and they do say that shouldn't be used in situations where there are cribbing horses either.

My advice? Find out what the wood was treated with and go from there.
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sbower
Clinician



1083 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  7:07:52 PM  Show Profile Send sbower a Private Message
Copper chrome arsenate (CCA) is being phased out in residential applications but is still available for agricultural applications, so it's quite possible that you bought CCA treated wood for fencing, especially if it was at a agricultural supply store...and while most sources say that it's not toxic to horses in my mind I'd be cautious. One report I saw said that a horse would have to eat a 6-foot long 2-by-4 board in a month to die from acute toxicity. Personally, I'd electrify the fence if your horse likes to crib. And make a note in the back of your mind that when the time comes to dispose of the fence (or section of it) that you should not EVER burn CCA treated wood.

Creosote (sp?) is also used as a preservative for wood and they do say that shouldn't be used in situations where there are cribbing horses either.

My advice? Find out what the wood was treated with and go from there.
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Budman
Advanced Rider



USA
230 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  8:58:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Budman's Homepage Send Budman a Private Message
I'm pretty skeptical when it comes to someone (the government, some scientific study etc) telling me somethings bad for me. I would not though, use treated lumber for wood where a horse is inclined to crib. I did use treated posts for my fence, haven't seen too many horses chew down a fence post, but I used untreated poplar for the rails. Also when working on stalls, we use treated for posts and bottom boards, but not up where the horse can get his teeth on it.

With that said, I would not replace the boards until you needed to. It would take a lot of cribbing to ingest enough metals to harm your horse, but if you have a choice, don't use treated.

Just my $0.02

Bud
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Budman
Advanced Rider



USA
230 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2005 :  8:58:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Budman's Homepage Send Budman a Private Message
I'm pretty skeptical when it comes to someone (the government, some scientific study etc) telling me somethings bad for me. I would not though, use treated lumber for wood where a horse is inclined to crib. I did use treated posts for my fence, haven't seen too many horses chew down a fence post, but I used untreated poplar for the rails. Also when working on stalls, we use treated for posts and bottom boards, but not up where the horse can get his teeth on it.

With that said, I would not replace the boards until you needed to. It would take a lot of cribbing to ingest enough metals to harm your horse, but if you have a choice, don't use treated.

Just my $0.02

Bud
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2005 :  11:20:57 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Budman

I'm pretty skeptical when it comes to someone (the government, some scientific study etc) telling me somethings bad for me. I would not though, use treated lumber for wood where a horse is inclined to crib. I did use treated posts for my fence, haven't seen too many horses chew down a fence post, but I used untreated poplar for the rails. Also when working on stalls, we use treated for posts and bottom boards, but not up where the horse can get his teeth on it.

With that said, I would not replace the boards until you needed to. It would take a lot of cribbing to ingest enough metals to harm your horse, but if you have a choice, don't use treated.

Just my $0.02

Bud



Bud, I think you might be a little confused. Dove is not a cribber. He is a wood chewer... 2 totally different things. Dove does not grab hold of something with his teeth and suck in air. That is a cribber. What he does is just chew the wood. I sometimes wonder if he's part beaver. LOL I usually find something similar to wood shavings, only much courser, on the floor below where he has chewed. So, I really wonder if he even swallows anything that he chews? Personally, I doubt it.



"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2005 :  11:20:57 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Budman

I'm pretty skeptical when it comes to someone (the government, some scientific study etc) telling me somethings bad for me. I would not though, use treated lumber for wood where a horse is inclined to crib. I did use treated posts for my fence, haven't seen too many horses chew down a fence post, but I used untreated poplar for the rails. Also when working on stalls, we use treated for posts and bottom boards, but not up where the horse can get his teeth on it.

With that said, I would not replace the boards until you needed to. It would take a lot of cribbing to ingest enough metals to harm your horse, but if you have a choice, don't use treated.

Just my $0.02

Bud



Bud, I think you might be a little confused. Dove is not a cribber. He is a wood chewer... 2 totally different things. Dove does not grab hold of something with his teeth and suck in air. That is a cribber. What he does is just chew the wood. I sometimes wonder if he's part beaver. LOL I usually find something similar to wood shavings, only much courser, on the floor below where he has chewed. So, I really wonder if he even swallows anything that he chews? Personally, I doubt it.



"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning
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sbower
Clinician



1083 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2005 :  1:25:07 PM  Show Profile Send sbower a Private Message
Just to clear any confusion.

According to the Merck Vet manual "cribbing (windsucking, crib biting) is a distinct behavior, different from wood chewing, that involves grasping of a horizontal surface with the incisors and flexing the neck without swallowing air."

According to UC Davis Vet School...Cribbing is when a horse chews boards and windsucking is when they bite down, arch their neck and "suck" air. paraphrased, see http://www.ucdavis.edu/index.html, search for cribbing for full text.

So even the experts can't agree! I think that a lot of people use these terms in error because often cribbers are wood chewers. Personally I think UC Davis is wrong but I have heard some vets call wood chewers "cribbers".
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sbower
Clinician



1083 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2005 :  1:25:07 PM  Show Profile Send sbower a Private Message
Just to clear any confusion.

According to the Merck Vet manual "cribbing (windsucking, crib biting) is a distinct behavior, different from wood chewing, that involves grasping of a horizontal surface with the incisors and flexing the neck without swallowing air."

According to UC Davis Vet School...Cribbing is when a horse chews boards and windsucking is when they bite down, arch their neck and "suck" air. paraphrased, see http://www.ucdavis.edu/index.html, search for cribbing for full text.

So even the experts can't agree! I think that a lot of people use these terms in error because often cribbers are wood chewers. Personally I think UC Davis is wrong but I have heard some vets call wood chewers "cribbers".
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Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2005 :  8:14:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
I am very leery with arsenic and potential poisoning...my husband worked one day in a plant that had fly-ash deposits on the floor, and he ended up really sick with arsenic poisoning. He didn't chew it, he didn't crib on it, he didn't rub up against it, he walked thru it.

If in doubt, I say string a hot wire. I choose not to use treated lumber around loved ones, two-legged or four-legged, since my husband's illness.

Instead of treated wood here, we used cedar which has a naturally long life without any treatment. Sure, the wood will eventually need to be replaced, but so far my posts have lasted 17 years...anyone know how how long treated lumber will last? At our first house, a treated deck started showing signs of decay at about year six. My front veranda (south side of house, lots of sun, rain and snow) is also 17 years old and is Doug Fir, stained when it needs it, and is just now showing signs of decay.

Just my O's.

-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"

~~~~~~

When you work here, you can name your own salary. I named mine, "Louie".

~~~~~~

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Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2005 :  8:14:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
I am very leery with arsenic and potential poisoning...my husband worked one day in a plant that had fly-ash deposits on the floor, and he ended up really sick with arsenic poisoning. He didn't chew it, he didn't crib on it, he didn't rub up against it, he walked thru it.

If in doubt, I say string a hot wire. I choose not to use treated lumber around loved ones, two-legged or four-legged, since my husband's illness.

Instead of treated wood here, we used cedar which has a naturally long life without any treatment. Sure, the wood will eventually need to be replaced, but so far my posts have lasted 17 years...anyone know how how long treated lumber will last? At our first house, a treated deck started showing signs of decay at about year six. My front veranda (south side of house, lots of sun, rain and snow) is also 17 years old and is Doug Fir, stained when it needs it, and is just now showing signs of decay.

Just my O's.

-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"

~~~~~~

When you work here, you can name your own salary. I named mine, "Louie".

~~~~~~

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luvmyhorse
Advanced Rider

USA
240 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2005 :  12:49:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit luvmyhorse's Homepage Send luvmyhorse a Private Message
Thanks everyone for all the info. I have had several people tell me to run a strand of hot wire. I have not noticed them chewing on fence but I check it everyday.
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luvmyhorse
Advanced Rider

USA
240 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2005 :  12:49:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit luvmyhorse's Homepage Send luvmyhorse a Private Message
Thanks everyone for all the info. I have had several people tell me to run a strand of hot wire. I have not noticed them chewing on fence but I check it everyday.
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Wally
Tenderfoot

1 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2006 :  01:37:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit Wally's Homepage Send Wally a Private Message
I happened upon your forum while looking for information on pre-treated lumber to replace termite damaged wood siding. Nothing really applied to my situation, but later I ran across the following which I thought might be helpful to you:

http://www.genicsinc.com/postguard/ContractorIntroBook.pdf
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2006 :  06:10:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
Thanks Wally. Appreciate that you took the time to post. I like the idea. I have soom cedar posts that are begiinning to go after 20 years and I may look into this for the next round.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 02/25/2006 :  09:30:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
Thank you, Wally, for posting the info! Very interesting!

-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"
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