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MullberryMae
Tenderfoot



8 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2005 :  10:34:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit MullberryMae's Homepage Send MullberryMae a Private Message
is it possible to re-condition horses that are 20yrs old and have been left to their own devices, they have dominance issues and mouthing problems and are just darn lazy and stubborn and pasture bound/herd bound. I've been doing ground work and grooming which hadn't been done in years, I haven't been bitten yet but I can tell they would like to (flat ears, wrinkled nose) they don't really attempt with me but are mouthing others and nipped a gals back, but she thinks they are being friendly....what to do

Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2005 :  11:03:35 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
Hi Mae; Nipping is not being friendly but is a sign of dominance. If it is allowed to continue, this "gal" could end up getting seriously bitten by that horse or any other horse that might nip. A nip, a bite, a leg swung in your direction, or a head swung in your direction with laid back ears and/or an open mouth with bared teeth are all signs of a horse having dominance over you. Do not allow any behavior such as this and discipline the horse immediately. John Lyons says to do it within 3 seconds from when it happens and to "kill" the horse when it occurrs. That means disciplining the horse to the point that he THINKS you are actually going to kill him. Then slowly approach him and stroke his neck or scratch him wherever he likes to be scratched. This tells him, "I could've killed you right now, but I decided to let you live."

Also along these same lines is the horse pushing or shoving you with his head, or you having to move out of the horse's way when you are around him. He is invading your space, and this is yet another form of dominance. In this instance, it's best to shove him back out of your way and tell him "No." in no uncertain terms.

Once a horse finds out he can boss you around, you are no longer in control of the situation and have put yourself in danger. You are no longer the herd leader or #1 in the pecking order. The horse is telling you what to do and he's the boss... not you.

Be careful, Mae, around these horses. It sounds to me like they have been in a herd environment for quite sometime without human intervention. I'd take it very slow, and introduce things such as grooming and spending time with them very slowly and in baby steps. Don't try anything without breaking it down into simpler steps, so you don't rush into anything that might get a much bigger reaction than you anticipated. Stay safe.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2005 :  11:03:35 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
Hi Mae; Nipping is not being friendly but is a sign of dominance. If it is allowed to continue, this "gal" could end up getting seriously bitten by that horse or any other horse that might nip. A nip, a bite, a leg swung in your direction, or a head swung in your direction with laid back ears and/or an open mouth with bared teeth are all signs of a horse having dominance over you. Do not allow any behavior such as this and discipline the horse immediately. John Lyons says to do it within 3 seconds from when it happens and to "kill" the horse when it occurrs. That means disciplining the horse to the point that he THINKS you are actually going to kill him. Then slowly approach him and stroke his neck or scratch him wherever he likes to be scratched. This tells him, "I could've killed you right now, but I decided to let you live."

Also along these same lines is the horse pushing or shoving you with his head, or you having to move out of the horse's way when you are around him. He is invading your space, and this is yet another form of dominance. In this instance, it's best to shove him back out of your way and tell him "No." in no uncertain terms.

Once a horse finds out he can boss you around, you are no longer in control of the situation and have put yourself in danger. You are no longer the herd leader or #1 in the pecking order. The horse is telling you what to do and he's the boss... not you.

Be careful, Mae, around these horses. It sounds to me like they have been in a herd environment for quite sometime without human intervention. I'd take it very slow, and introduce things such as grooming and spending time with them very slowly and in baby steps. Don't try anything without breaking it down into simpler steps, so you don't rush into anything that might get a much bigger reaction than you anticipated. Stay safe.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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ree7
Advanced Rider

USA
164 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2005 :  11:15:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit ree7's Homepage Send ree7 a Private Message
Yes, older horses can be retrained/reconditioned but the training must be consistent. If they have several different handlers that are allowing them to mouth people and show disrespect the horses will continue to try to get away with bad behavior.

A better scenario (at least in the beginning of their retraining) would be to have an area where the horse is taken away from the herd/pasture for daily one-on-one grooming/ground work with the same person every day. Depending on their past training, it might not take too long for the horse to be reminded how to act around people. Consistency is the key.
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ree7
Advanced Rider

USA
164 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2005 :  11:15:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit ree7's Homepage Send ree7 a Private Message
Yes, older horses can be retrained/reconditioned but the training must be consistent. If they have several different handlers that are allowing them to mouth people and show disrespect the horses will continue to try to get away with bad behavior.

A better scenario (at least in the beginning of their retraining) would be to have an area where the horse is taken away from the herd/pasture for daily one-on-one grooming/ground work with the same person every day. Depending on their past training, it might not take too long for the horse to be reminded how to act around people. Consistency is the key.
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2005 :  6:42:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Old horses and dogs can change their ways but if you are dealing with bad habits or poor training it is harder. Much harder to untrain and then retrain a horse then to just train one.

What is the case. Do you own them, who is the other woman, do you have a good place to work with them, is this your job to work with them? If they are your horses or your job to work with them and this other girl is just someone else at the barn that isn't above you then put your foot down and say that letting them do things is not helping them at all and at this age if they don't have good manners it doesn't help them at all.
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2005 :  6:42:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Old horses and dogs can change their ways but if you are dealing with bad habits or poor training it is harder. Much harder to untrain and then retrain a horse then to just train one.

What is the case. Do you own them, who is the other woman, do you have a good place to work with them, is this your job to work with them? If they are your horses or your job to work with them and this other girl is just someone else at the barn that isn't above you then put your foot down and say that letting them do things is not helping them at all and at this age if they don't have good manners it doesn't help them at all.
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MullberryMae
Tenderfoot



8 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2006 :  6:47:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit MullberryMae's Homepage Send MullberryMae a Private Message
Hi Folks! this forum is so great! I only wish I had internet in the barn, because thats where I've been spending my time.
Lets see first some background info on me, I grew up riding, raising and rodeo'in, though at 19 I got sidetracked and then my family got out of the biz. so I still have my horse sense just a little rusty, and I'm not nearly as brave or reckless as I was back then...I live in an intentional community in the Ozarks of Missouri (www.eastwind.org), the two horses are community Horses that were donated, I rescued a horse for myself this past Christmas (3 year old appaloosa gelding neglected thin cheap and I hope I did the right thing---so far he's a great guy, very willing, very quick to pick things up..etc...just gotta get about 200lbs of bulk on him...anyways..) the two older horses I never got interested in trying to salvage because I grew up with pampered, pedigreed ponies, and never met horses that had been forgotten about in pastures, that were happier left alone, my horses always wanted to come out and play/work run those barrels etc.... after I got my App (Apache) the two old ones got me to feeling sorry for them, they would stand at the fence and watch him get taken out, groomed, loved etc...so I thought lets see if I can do something with these two....I totally understand about dominanting horses, and after only 3 days of getting them both out and not taking any pushy crap from them they are much improved with me, no more mouthing, barging etc, I've been doing only ground work and they both seem to respect me now and are no longer hard to catch, I even get a welcome nicker from the mare....I am not the horse manager, the other gal is and I've been plying her with books and such, and even pointed out how different the horses treat me compared to her...I kinda think she's gonna have to learn the "oooh 1000lb animal with very deep flight instinct--and much stronger than a mere mortal" lesson, she's never been kicked, thrown etc so she doesn't possibly get that in no uncertain terms do you treat a horse like a little lap dog..I've explained herd behaviour and how horses want you to take the lead and make them feel safe and secure and in control of the situation, I'm feeling good about the progress the horses are making, though I don't know how to get them to the point of being safe trail community horses if I can't get folks to 1. try to understand the horse brain 2. be able to be calmly dominant over the horse without being loud, abrupt and alarming etc....I did give my first "horse class" today so I'll keep at it and hope no one gets hurt....
next horse question:
my app I "saved" needs weight, I've wormed him for everything, feeding pasture, alfafa cubes and a complete feed, mineral block and love, how long do I wait to see weight gain before I call in the vet to look for serious probs....his coat is already looking brighter, and his energy is picked up, but still he's 16 hands of ribs and backbone....I got him on 12-24....
once again I'm so glad for this forum, as I've not hooked up with any local like minded horse lovers here yet....folks here can still be pretty hard handed and down right mean to "break" their horses....
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2006 :  10:16:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
Sounds like you definitely have the right approach. Older horses may come arround faster than you expect if they have had a good foundation of training in their background.
Just make sure he has free choice ( all he can eat) good quality Timothy hay mI would add a ration balancer such as TDI # 10 or an Equivalent Buckeye product which will supply the right balance of vitamins and minerals and My preference is to add steam crimped whole ots.. It may take 3 months to a year to get the bloom back. I ould also reworm him at about two week intervals for about 6 weeks to ensure that all the worms have bben caught. It would halp to rottae wormers but I would stay away from Quest as it may be too Potent and has been known to cause problems. If you are not happy with his progress you can gradually increase the grain ration or buy a formulated feed designed for hard to keep horses but I would be patient and see. You may want to buy a wiegt tape from you local tack shop / feed store to monitor progress.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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MullberryMae
Tenderfoot



8 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2006 :  01:41:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit MullberryMae's Homepage Send MullberryMae a Private Message
another thing I have questions about is that I'd never encountered cracked hooves in the horses of my yesteryears, I'm from florida, sandy no rocks, I know sand colic not cracked feet....it's rocky here and we're getting shoes, but could it have to due with vitamin def. in pastured horses? and I keep reading about it but until the farrier comes out I'm unsure how to judge a bad crack from a comes with the terrian crack....Hey any Missouri Horse folk out there..
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2006 :  07:34:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
Depending on what the cracks look like it may be nutrition based although the weather in our part of Canada seemed to be conducive to develop small toe line cracks on some of our horses. They are clearing up with the weather chnage and more frequent hoof trimming.
The folks could probably give you some more specific opinions if you post a close up picture of the hoof.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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Country Bumpkin
Advanced Rider



USA
168 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2006 :  3:37:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Country Bumpkin's Homepage Send Country Bumpkin a Private Message
Hey, I'm not from MO, but I live in North East Arkansas,right below the AR/MO state line. Weight gain in neglected horses happens very slowly. April,the mare I rescued right before Thanksgiving is slowly but steadily putting on weight. I am feeding her a feed that is 14% protein and like 6% fat.It has Calf Manna in it which helps put weight on.
She also gets all the grass hay she wants plus a few hours of pasture turnout a day. It could be that Apache needs some dental work done.
As for the hoof cracks,I just use Hoof-Heal on the hooves about once to twice a week,depending on weather and if they have anything wrong that needs more applications. A bad crack would probably be one that splits all the way up to the coronet band. Mine sometimes get tiny cracks.
Regular trimming would probably help.And in summer months mine usually get cracks more often,because it's so dry.
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2006 :  6:52:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
A lot of people use use Calf Manna but it is does not have enough copper for horses. The ration Balance from TDI has a btter horse mix. Switched to TDI from Calf Manna after several years and notice definite improvement in overall horse condition and quality of hooves with a significant reduction in quantity we have feed to maintain the same condition.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2006 :  9:40:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
hmmmm doesn't Calfmanna have too much copper for some animals? Also it's feed more as a supplement(up to what 2 lbs) then a total diet so the whole diet needs to be taken into account. But one thing I have learned is that "Calfmanna" in one place is not "Calfmanna" in another place. This came up on another board where Calfmanna in one place(I think Canada) has a higher fat/lower protien and here(US) it has a lower fat/higher protien. Why that is I don't know but when we compared tags off of the bags there was a huge difference in what was in them.


You have to let cracks grow out so depending on the crack it can be months to over a year before you see a difference. It also depends on why the hoof cracked. Poor trimming, not enough trimming, diet, the weather, the ground, etc all can cause cracks. If it is a diet related thing then you need to address that along with proper trimming. Nothing you put on the hoof is going to just make cracks go away. Even if they are caused by dry weather/ground it isn't going to help that much. Anything you put on the hoof can only change it 5% or less, normally less so nothing you really do to the outside is going to make a difference. You can treat the new growth, make the diet healthier, keep up on trimming and change the ground and get much better results then just putting something on the already grown out hoof. I have had a few farriers say that it is pointless to toss money into stuff that only treats the grown out hoof. Sealing moisture in can work better then trying to put moisture into the hoof.

My horses started developing this little almost sand cracks about 2 yrs ago. Our weather has been so odd around her the past 5 yrs. Last summer I starting running a line of Kopertox around the hoof wall about half way up the hoof, 2 times a week and I can't believe the difference that made. The new hoof wall is growing down without this cracks that would go all the way up on some. So the only thing I can figure is that the wet weather is causing fungus problems. Now I'm starting to think that treating any crack should include treating for fungus problems in areas that fungus is a problem. I have seen fungus in even normal cracks and fungus really damages the hoof wall.

Now I have to go dig out the calfmanna info because it's bugging me. lol
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2006 :  10:06:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Ok Calfmanna is still low in horses BUT depending on how much you feed, your hay and what grains and other supplements you are feeding it might be enough.

If we just look at calfmanna one pound gives you 6.8 to 15.8 mg a day of copper. Hays(grass) is around 4-11mg per lb but only about 6-34% is useable so that is around 4.8-74.8 for a 20 lb diet. Given that a horse given a higher copper hay(74.8) and two lbs of calfmanna(13.6-31.6) is getting 88.4-106.4mg a day more then enough for the avg light riding horse. And since most people also feed a grain and mixed grains may have added copper you really get into that safe range. I'm so proud of myself I'm getting good at this feeding math. I can give you a total break down of %'s for color genetics but this feed math is taking me forever to figure out!

Now I also had to check out what I'm feeding.

The hay will say is the same as above since I don't have my test results right here. 4.8-74.8mg/20lbs

Grain would be 22.68mg/lb
Supplement is 43mg/oz

So Coal is getting around 95.52-165.52mg
Jazz would be 146-216mg

I don't think either one of them is lacking copper if my math is right!
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2006 :  10:09:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
Nope, Calf Manna dose not have enough copper. It is safe to feed to sheep to whom copper is toxic. It is onlya supplement and should not be fed more than the recommended amount.

I'll have to studdy the fungus crack conection. Sounds like it is worth a try.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2006 :  12:17:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
All over the bag, the website and the tag, and box they use to put into it it says do not feed to sheep, toxic to sheep, not safe for sheep. Could this be one of those "whats different here"? How much copper is in the calfmanna where you are at?

There was a study(kind of informal I think) about the use ot Iodine on hoof fungus and they found that if you spray iodine on the hoof for even once a week it helps to reduce fungus and even helps stop it from turning into full blown WLD. I think it was atleast 3-4 times a week to get hoofs totally 'cured' of it. I had been using iodine for a lot time but got lazy about it so that could be why I saw the spike in the fungus. I do know that fungus problems are more common then it seems. I dealt with WLD off and on for years on Star and not much helps with that.
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2006 :  10:12:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
I started thinking about it and I know where the 14 days comes from. It's 14 days from the time the animal contacts it that they show signs of it. So if a horse was near a horse with it 20 days ago chances are they didn't get it. That's what the 14 day thing was. I still think 8 months is a long time.
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2006 :  10:40:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
Must be one of those "only in Canada eh":)

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2006 :  11:31:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Sorry about that last post it was suppost to be somewhere else but in my state of mind it got placed in the wrong spot. Is that a blonde thing or a I'm so sick of winter I'm loosing my mind thing?

Hook

Some questions. I went back and looked up where I was talking with someone else about Calfmanna and there seemed to be a number of differences in what I get as Calfmanna and what she got as Calfmanna so I think it is an area thing.
But with TDI what is it that you are feeding? I didn't find anything on their website by that name. What level of copper are you looking for? I know that the avg. horse needs about 82mg but that is min and copper is one that they can go much higher on without problem. I follow normally the "don't give it unless it's needed" so everything gets tested from time to time. Then I only supplement what the diet is lacking so no one gets too much of something. Here Sel. is a problem and everyone always supplements it beyond what is in the grain. But when I was having problems with Jazz and we tested her she was not lacking it at all and was a very good level. If I would have just starting giving her the Sel+E instead of the E then it would have been enough to cause problems for her and the foal. I am looking into switching to a supplement that is designed for this area but I'm not too keen on the idea either. I like that it would cut down on some of the buckets I need and it looks to not be too high in anything that would cause problems so that is good but it is lacking in E, Biotin, Cobalt and zinc for what I would like. I'm trying to find something close to it in everything else for a grass hay diet but still having more of the above. I'm limited in choices unless I order it.
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