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elizNY
Beginning Rider

USA
105 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  12:54:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit elizNY's Homepage Send elizNY a Private Message
Hi friends, as many of you know I have been trying horses looking for one to lease and maybe eventually buy, but for right now just lease. I have had my ups and downs, mostly downs. FINALLY tried a horse I got along with. Here's the issue. I ride mainly western, and though this horse does both it was primarily an english horse. She does not neck rein real well, she sortof does, but its not automatic, the trainer "helps" her along by turning his wrist but for me I have to use two hands. That, and she does not pick up the left lead right away. Neither of these things are huge issues, but I would like them to get better eventually. He seems to think that it is mainly because she has not been ridden "in forever" and that she is a bit rusty, a little lazy, and her feet are "slightly" overgrown making her a little stiff, and with a little tuning up she will improve. She had a few foals, was ridden occasionally on trails for the last few years. I do not know nything about her earlier life except I heard a rumor she has some halter points. My question is, is it possible to make her a good neck reiner or at her age (15) is it too late? Should I wait for the next horse if I really want to ride one-handed?
This is one of the few horses I have actually enjoyed riding in a while. Looks-wise she really does nothing for me so I know I am not getting excited because she is "ooh so pretty". I have ridden her several times and so far, watched others ride her, and she has been just a nice honest horse. Despite the neck reining, and the lead issue, and not the smoothest lope, she is just pleasant to be around. Stands real quiet, not cinchy, no nipping, lets my daughter and non-horsey husband brush and lead her, bridles real well, etc etc. What do you say - can this horse be "westernized" - or am I headed for frustration?

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  03:09:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Depends on the horse. Does she listen to leg cues? 90% of neck reining is leg and seat cues not rein cues. So when you see those highly trained horses they are reacting more to leg and seat.

If she moves off your legs well it's just a simple method of weaning her off direct rein and on to indirect rein by timing your cues just right. You start with the new cue(neck reining) and back it up with the leg and seat and then if need, and only if needed you use the direct rein cue. You have to work on this but she will start to understand that when you use the neck rein cue you are asking for a turn and if she doesn't listen you are going to back it up with that direct rein.

This really isn't as hard as many make it to be. Remember that it has to be done on a loose rein. If it is tight then you are going to cause pressure on the outside rein which would cue her to go the other way. So neck reining is not taught until the horse is working on a loose rein.

Most horses, as long as their training is good and the rider does their job can handle learning this even at this age.

The lead issue could be a number of things. Is she stiff to one side for more things or just this? You also might want to think about a vet check would should rule out most health related caused of it.
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  05:27:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
I think ridng one handed is overated unless you are showing, opening a gate or swinging a rope.

Our horses start out two handed and progress into neck reining as they progress. Most of our training and trail riding is two handed. Works great for control when unexpected things happen. It is impossible to turn a spooked horse with one hand.

Any horse can be taught to neck rein and I wouldn't turn down a good SAFE horse just because they don't neck rein.

I would be more worried about "feet slightly over grown, making her a little stiff". Over grown feet should not cause her to be stiff. From your description i would think that she may be older than 15 or have a touch of arthritis. I would suggest a thorough Vet check before you finalize the deal.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  08:00:18 AM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message
I agree that the neck reining isn't a big deal and could probably be taught without a lot of trouble. I do like to trail ride one handed for the most part. That way I have a hand free to dig into the trail mix, get the water bottle and wave my spiderweb removal device around. LOL!!

I'd be more concerned with her stiffness too. Does she go downhill without a problem? Navicular can cause a horse not to want to move down an incline. You might also want to check for suspensory damage. There's a test you can do but I'd recommend a vet check before agreeing to a lease.

Good luck!


Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  10:44:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
Hook made a good point about neck reining not the biggest deal if other things in place. Quiet and willing horse are super plusses in my book.
Vet check and trial lease would be a really good idea though.

I am a 2 handed rider....hard to break those English habits...esp. with greenish horses !!
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  12:35:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
"my spiderweb removal device"

LOL I have to remember to tell my sister that. She freaks about spiders, not that I like them either but I once saw her to a dance on Lucky's back and poor Luck didn't know what was going on.
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elizNY
Beginning Rider

USA
105 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  1:18:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit elizNY's Homepage Send elizNY a Private Message
The neck reining is not the biggest deal, but after trying to go around the arena with my water bottle I decided it was still important! The extent of any showing I will do is the few open shows the barn has in the summer, they are all for fun but I still have to reverse at the rail with one hand.
Yes, she does respond to leg cues though she is not as sensitive as other horses. She is rather stout, and a bit overweight, and I have short legs so it takes a little maneuvering but yes, I got her to sidepass, turn on the forehand etc. So I can say she knows how, though we would not have won any beauty contests doing so!
She is not stiff in the forelegs so to speak, she does not have alot of flexibility side to side. As far as we know, she does not have any lameness issues, he is considering buying her because "she is sound and has a good mind", and has papers that say 15.
I do believe in vet checks but I am not there yet. I do not know if buying her is in my future, for right now I would just like to ride the horse through the spring and summer and see if a real relationship develops. Although I rode English for years, that was many years ago. I prefer not to have to invest in a new set of tack, show clothes etc etc and I guess I am just hoping someone will tell me it will be easier to westernize the horse than Englishize the rider! So far this has been a good, willing, out of shape horse. I am just wondering if trying to improve her neck rein is going to be too much of a challenge and if not, how long does it take to see progress?
As far as the left lead, it takes about 6 or 7 tries before she picks up the correct lead, then she is fine. She goes along until you ask her to stop, there is no head tossing, crossfiring, ear pinning or tail swishing, the trainer says she does not really "bend" into the corners and he says he would like to see some more flexibility although he feels she will improve with regular work.
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  6:58:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
A vet check would be a good thing even if you don't buy her. Then there is a base line of health at the start of the lease and it would also make sure that she is sound for what you want. If the hooves and stiffness is caused by a more major health problem that could mean that she isn't sound for what you want. If you have to pay vet bills on her when you are leasing her that could be a lot of money for vet and farrier bills. Even if you aren't paying those bills it could cause a lot of down time where you are paying to use a horse you can't even use.

But the biggest thing is the base line of health. Many leases have parts about the health and care of the animal. If she has a health problem now and you lease her and it gets worst the owner might try to say that you caused it. If there is a vet check at the start of the lease then you have some backing to prove that the horse entered the lease with the problem.
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  1:34:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
Wow, Stormie's last paragraph....never would have thought of that. Good post. Plus, brings to mind true story that happened between my former riding instructor and friend.

My former instructor half leased her horse to one of her students (student and I got to be friends). Not sure of specific lease/$ payments. Instructor is young, no real $$. Friend not rolling in $$ but married to a doctor, so not exactly scraping the barrell for cash. After a year or so of leasing (and bonding) with instructors horse, horse diagnosed with Navicular. Friend helped with the vet bills, special shoes, even paid her lease payment when horse was on rest in an effort to help instructor, knowing instructor's financial limitations. Last we talked, friend was trying to figure a way of getting out of it all. She helped cause she cares for the horse, had the financial means, knew the instructors situation...but with no horse to ride, she was trying to find a way to end the financial bind for herself. She was trying to look for a rescue place for the horse to retire. The instructor kind of let her do it all, I think cause she kept offering, not that she saw it as my friend's responsiblity.

Anyway, who would have known the horse would have Navicular? Just dawned on me that prior to leasing horse, did come up lame once, and instructor wasn't sure why. Maybe that was the start of it? Cost my friend a lot of$$. So, the idea of vet checking prior to leasing as Stormie suggested is a GREAT one, esp. if you have to pay for part of vet bills in lease agreement.
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2006 :  08:54:17 AM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by PaintGal

I do like to trail ride one handed for the most part. That way I have a hand free to dig into the trail mix, get the water bottle and wave my spiderweb removal device around. LOL!!



Everybody needs a donkey's tail for spiderweb removal! lol

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2006 :  09:16:56 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by appygirl

quote:
Originally posted by PaintGal

I do like to trail ride one handed for the most part. That way I have a hand free to dig into the trail mix, get the water bottle and wave my spiderweb removal device around. LOL!!



Everybody needs a donkey's tail for spiderweb removal! lol



Appygirl, if I missed it and you posted it already somewhere, WHAT spider web removal device? Pray tell!
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2006 :  12:28:12 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message
PG has a 'horse hair' swish that looks like a donkey's tail. A few of us who have had the great opportunity of riding with PG tease her about her donkey's tail. I, personally, covet it and want one of my own because that donkey's tail is not only very effect against the spidey webs, but also great at repelling flies from horse and human. I'm biding my time for my next visit to PG's palatial estate whereby I will stealthily pay a visit to Woody and Indy to gain my own 'donkey's tail'. I wonder if PG will notice one of her donks minus his tail? ;o)

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2006 :  2:38:10 PM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message
LOL! The donkey tail I use for a spiderweb removal device is actually a Fly Wisk. I can't remember where I got mine but paid about $10 for it. I've looked since then and all of the ones I found were $20+ BUT I just searched again & found them for $10.95 here.

At least now, if Indy or Woody comes up missing a tail, I know where I can get a replacement part. ROFL!!

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2006 :  2:52:32 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by PaintGal

LOL! The donkey tail I use for a spiderweb removal device is actually a Fly Wisk. I can't remember where I got mine but paid about $10 for it. I've looked since then and all of the ones I found were $20+ BUT I just searched again & found them for $10.95 here.

At least now, if Indy or Woody comes up missing a tail, I know where I can get a replacement part. ROFL!!



Thanks for finding that PG, after you mentioned it the first time in "Gadgets to know about" or whatever it was named...thread, I've looked at them in tack stores (if they had them). Stateline had one for... I think $20, maybe more. Longer hair than this one looks, but sure looked like it would do the trick.

If you use that for spider webs, though... within one or two webs you'd have it totally gunked up, no???
Thanks,
Carol
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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2006 :  6:04:05 PM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message
OTW,

I just sweep it across leaves to remove the webs that don't go sailing when I flick it. It's great for keeping flies off rumps & chests & anywhere else you can reach.

Be careful when you first start using it so you don't startle Cloud.

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2006 :  6:57:56 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by PaintGal

OTW,

I just sweep it across leaves to remove the webs that don't go sailing when I flick it. It's great for keeping flies off rumps & chests & anywhere else you can reach.

Be careful when you first start using it so you don't startle Cloud.



Be careful when I start using it... heck, I intend to take full advantage of it. It's horse hair. What I'll do is sack her out with it. She'll smell and see horse hair. It'll be in my hand so she'll think it's part of me. And I will whisper, "Alpha, Alpha, meeee Alpha."
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2006 :  11:06:42 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message
Hey, PG, my birthiday IS coming up soon! lol


Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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