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 Caring and Owning Horses
 Grooming and Health
 Worming & fecal counts
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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  9:53:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message
I subscribe to Horse Journal and the latest issue suggested that we are worming our horses too much and causing resistance in the worms. They recomended having fecals done before worming and then treating if needed. So I took some stool samples to my vets Friday to have worm counts done. They called today and left a message - no worms! I will call them tomorrow and find out what they recommend as far as worming, but was shocked they found none. The samples were both no more than an hour old, so that shouldn't be an issue. Has anyone else ever had a negative worm count?

Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......

Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  11:57:15 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
I went for years without worming my horses back in the 70's just because I never knew you were supposed to! Funny thing is my mare survived just fine, but this isn't saying that you should quit worming your horses.

Actually, the reason for worming every 8 weeks or so is to keep your horse worm free. So, I'd say that if you found no worms that your worming program is doing its job. I've read that even a small infestation of worms could harm your horse and his health, so I don't know if I'd want to take the risk of not worming on a regular basis... and I'd definitely not want a wormy horse infesting my property and my horses if I took any outsiders in!

I'd also say the more your your horse is kept in a stall or on small acreage or in a small area, such as a lot or arena, most of the time, the higher the risk of a worm infestation. I know you don't worm cats or dogs unless they are infected, but a horse's digestion system is a whole lot more delicate than a dog's or a cat's.

I've never had a worm count done on my horses, but my vet highly recommends a good worming program. I'll be very much interested to hear what your vet has to say on the matter.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  6:48:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
What some people do is just recheck. I have one friend that will deworm and then check at 8 weeks and every 2-4 weeks after. As long as the test is neg he doens't deworm.

But my problem is that this doesn't always tell you the whole picture. Your animal could still be affected but not sheading the eggs and I believe that it doesn't work for all worms.

I do test this way but I also balance it out. Even if they test neg. I may deworm if it has been a while since the last time.
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  7:01:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
You can do the fecal count tests on your own. at first you have to get exp with it before you really count on your results. I looked through my endless pile of horsey info and found this:

You need:
a squeeze bottle (like the football players use that sprays a thin stream of liquid)
A floatation tube (it's about the length and diameter of your thumb) and strainer (Duchess may be able to get you one through their suppliers where she works. Probably about 50 cents)
5 pounds of sugar (this is a homeade "fecalsol")
water
microscope slide and cover
microscope
Dissolve as much sugar into a quart of water as you can. Let it stand an hour or so.
Then without getting the undissolved sugar off the bottom, put the sugar water into the squeeze bottle.
Put your mashed sample (about like your thumb nail) into the tube. Fill half way with the sugar water, then stir with a chopstick to break up the sample and expose as much as possible to the sugar water.
After it's well stirred, fill 4/5th of the way to the top with the sugar water.
Then slowly push the strainer down the sleeve, until the strainer's "handle" is BELOW the top of the tube.
Set the tube on a stable surface, and fill the tube the rest of the way to the top with the sugar water, until it makes a slight dome.
Place the slide cover on top of the tube.
Set a timer for 15 minutes.
After 15 minutes, lift the cover off the tube and place it on the slide.
Look at it under the microscope.
Without any pictures to show you what to look for, look for any symmetrical objects, of uniform shape.




I have a better one somewhere and you should be able to find photos on the internet.
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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  9:06:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message
Thanks Stormie,
I'm a retired lab tech, so I should be able to do that. Now if I can just find a cheap microscope somewhere.....

Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  11:41:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Walmart had some but I didn't look at them too closely so I don't know how good they are. I know I have a better write up on how to do fecal counts but I can't find it.
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sbower
Clinician



1083 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  12:38:12 PM  Show Profile Send sbower a Private Message
Well, I didn't read the article but I think its just as likely that the resistence is due to improper and inconsistent worming. There's no question that resistence is occurring but I personally know far more people who only worm once a year and have no clue what "rotation of wormers" is.

As far as fecal counts go, it won't show the encysted worms that are lodged in your horses intestinal walls, nor will it determine whether your horse has tapeworms.

One of the best ways to reduce the occurance of drug resistance is to clean the paddocks and pastures twice a week. Or to rotate them, allowing three months for the worms and eggs to die. I don't know too many that do this either as it isn't practical. But if you really want to reduce the number of wormings I'd suggest that part of the program should be a frequent cleaning out of all pasture/paddock.

I've posted before on worming and the toxicity of wormers unfortunately I can't get the search function to work but I'll try to link to it later.

<'\__~
_(( // ====

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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  1:42:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
I have never had a fecal worm/egg count. Though I have read about it, I have never done it and neither vet I have used has ever suggested it. I rotate wormers, clean stalls 2x/day, not on pasture. Just the 3 horses here. Regular worming program, one of them suggested in Horse Journal a few years ago (they gave you alternative programs depending on where you lived, risk of horses, etc.) Horses healthy with routine well horse check/vacs/dentist.

So, I am wondering if I need to do this at all?

How many of you routinely do fecal counts?



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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  3:31:13 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message
I'm sure there is some resistance to wormers, but that is one of the reasons why you need to rotate wormer products. Fecal counts will only work in some instances, but will not indicate encysted worms (lungs, stomach, intestines, liver, etc.) Tape worms will not show up in a fecal count either. Pasture management is very important in any worming program. If you can't rotate pastures, 'drag' over the poop piles so the eggs will be exposed to the sunlight to kill them off.

Since I board my horse at a facility with several horses and inadequate pasture management, I deworm him every 3 months, rotating wormers each time.


Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  3:41:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message
Well after speaking with the receptionist at the vet's office, she said even tho' the counts are negative that i should continue on with my regular worming schedule, i.e. I know it is working. I was under the assumption that if they were negative, I'm treating for worms that aren't there and giving my horses drugs that they don't need. I was hoping that they would say skip this months dose and de-worm beginning May 1st when grazing season begins. I have been following an 8 week rotation for de-worming. I do realize bots & tapeworms aren't usually detected on fecal exams, I use Zimectrn Gold in the fall for those critters. At $17.50 per fecal exam, its cheaper to just de-worm them on schedule!

Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  8:13:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
I've never had a fecal exam done on any of my horses...it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to have one done now and then just to make sure your de-worming program is working, though!

Speaking of rotation, the same article in Horse Journal states we may be rotating the wrong way...that instead of using a different de-wormer every time, we should be using one for a year, another the next year, and so on. Now, I'm not saying the article is wrong, but there are only so many de-wormers...looks like there are alot of them, but it is mostly the same compounds under different brand names. And seems like we would HAVE to use ivermectin at least once a year, since it is (as far as I know) about the only thing on the market available for bots.

EZ2SPOT
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2006 :  09:08:59 AM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message
My jury is still out on using the same wormer for one year and then alternating to another the next. It seems to me that is how resistance would be built up. I believe Ohio State did a study on that and found using one wormer annually was the way to go; I'm just not sold on it. You're right, Vicki, that many worming products have different names for the same compound. That's why I always look to see what 'kind' of wormer it is before I buy it.

Here is a very important observation about worming for bots. I have witnessed countless people who worm their horses for bots but will not remove the bot eggs from their horses legs, manes, etc. By leaving the eggs in place, your horse is going to ingest the eggs thereby negating any worming that you've done. Tack stores sell 'bot knives' explicitly for the use of egg removal. It is very important you remove the eggs or you've wasted your money in worming your horse for bots.

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2006 :  12:29:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
There are many types of dewormers now so it would be possible to go 4-5 yrs before rotating back to a dewormer you have used if you go on the one year plan. But those dewormers don't cover the same things. Some of the all in one types do cover more but that would limit your choices great.

Has any one seen the new one dose Tape Worm dewormer from Farnam? I think it's called Tape Care Plus.
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appygirl
Clinician



USA
3211 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2006 :  12:35:37 PM  Show Profile Send appygirl a Private Message
I havn't seen it, but I have seen advertisements.

Appygirl

Man does not have the only memory,
The animals remember,
The earth remembers,
The stones remember,
If you know how to listen, they will tell you many things.
- Claude Kuwanijuma - Hopi Spiritual leader


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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2006 :  12:59:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
Deworming can be confusing . Several years ago Horse Jouranl had a good article and put out several different potential deworming programs depending on particular horse keeping situations and your climate. Choose what best matches your situation. States the limitations of each one. Followed what compared to my situation the most.

Then last year, they put out another article for different programs again...completely different info!! How's that for confusing??

Some program was on last weekend the kids were watching and showed a guy who got a bot that festered under his skin. Showed the stages of how bad it got up until required actual surgical removal. UGH, gross, they pulled the larva out of him!! Was good reminder for me to rotate wormers. Did find bot eggs once on my TB, couple on leg , mane and tail. Never since.
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2006 :  1:45:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
There are different types of bots. It might not have been the same type as what horses get.
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