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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2006 :  11:36:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message
Every year I set goals that I try to reach in my horsemanship. I was wondering if any of you have suggestions for continuing my horse's education. My situation is that I don't have an arena to ride in, so am confined to using my 60' round pen and small pasture area. The first year I had my quarter horse we worked on standing still for mounting and backing up( he had no reverse). He also had a tendency to take off with me, so we worked on lots of lateral flexion to get a good one rein stop. I rigged up an obstacle course with poles, tarps, and a pallet/plywood "bridge" to play on. I also started clicker training with him, doing little tricks.
Last year we worked on speed control(in round pen & neighbor's arena), water crossing, and dragging a tire. I also started doing the Parelli 7 games with him. We have some trails in our woods and ride there quite often which he seems to enjoy. Since we had such a hot summer , he really came to enjoy the creek stomping. However neither of us is too comfortable going out by ourselves. I did walk him on a lead around some of the trails when I couldn't find a ridng buddy.
I still do not feel comfortable riding him at a canter in the open and have only trotted for short distnces before bringing him back down to a walk. He is a very forward going horse and loves to get out, but the first 15 minutes or so, we do lots of circles to keep him in check.
I plan on working on sidepassing and opening gates this coming riding season. Any other suggestions.


Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/31/2006 :  1:59:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
The big thing I would work on is getting better about speed and working alone. Both things are control and trust issues that will greatly help in other areas.

One thing that really helped my forward loving horse was Anderson's Clover pattern.

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hmeyer
Clinician



USA
2194 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  09:06:43 AM  Show Profile Send hmeyer a Private Message
Sounds like you are doing a lot of good things!
Right now, I am working a lot on Max's stops, from a walk, trot, and canter. Also, lots of transitions. Trying to use more seat and legs and less hands. Also work on your disengaging hind quarter and turning on the hind and the fore. Work on getting a soft feel in the face by flexing the reins until he bends at the poll, then release the pressure immediately. Also walk over tarps laid out on the ground to simulate water.

How secure are you in the saddle? If you can stay on pretty good, here's a fun one... try putting a 4x4 under your wooden bridge so it rocks like a teeter totter. Get him used to crossing that unstable bridge. It will get him more confident so he can do better on trails, especially like if you come to a suspension bridge or get on a rock that tips or something. Just be careful at first, when it first tips he is likely to spook somewhat, probably backwords, so be ready.

Also, do a lot of groundwork and sacking out with all kinds of stuff. Then, while mounted, get him used to swinging a rope, and dragging stuff like tarps, etc.

These are just some of the things I've tried to do with Max. I'm sure others will have many more ideas.

And by the way, I haven't said it yet, but welcome to the forum!

"You learn a thing a day, you store up smart" - Festus Haggen

"A manís soul canít be hidden,
From the creatures in his care." -
Hard Candy Cowboy by Debra Meyer


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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  09:43:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message
Thanks for the suggestions.
Stormie, I'm not familiar with the clover pattern. Is it just riding in a cloverleaf pattern? Do you use cones?
hmeyer, how secure a seat do I have? Well, he's gotten me off 7 times in the last three riding seasons. Mostly quick spins, but twice he bucked. Only got me off once last year, so I guess I'm getting better, or he is! I will try the rocking bridge, sounds fun. I can introduce him to that on the ground while its still cold. We also need to work on turns on the forehand (the one where his hind stays still and fore moves around it) I hadn't thought of working on collection yet, but might try. Its hard to think about so many things when he's taking off pell mell. He had a tendency to go straight to the canter from the walk whenever I asked for an upward trasition. He's better now, but not consistant. Thanks for the input and the welcome!

Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......
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hmeyer
Clinician



USA
2194 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  10:00:57 AM  Show Profile Send hmeyer a Private Message
Well, looks like you and I are similar. Max has departed company with me 9 times in the last 2 years. Stomped on once, one broken finger, one torn rib cartilages, a couple of sore backs...but who's counting? I'm too old (52) for that stuff. Ours were mostly from spooks, where he moved quick and I didn't, thanks to that dang Newton and his laws of inertia. Also bucked a couple of times. But he is getting much better, and I keep trying these stupid things. As far as the teeter totter goes, he did jump back a little the first time and I squeezed him up and encouraged him to go forward, then he kinda squirted forward. The second try was much better, and the third was pretty easy.

My understanding is that a turn on the fore is actually where the front stays put and the hind comes around. Like disengaging the hind quarters. A turn on the hind is where the hind stays still and the front lifts up and comes across, like would be done in a rollback or when cutting cows. A turn on the hind, properly done (which I don't do often) can give you a pretty good rush when his front end comes up and around.

"You learn a thing a day, you store up smart" - Festus Haggen

"A manís soul canít be hidden,
From the creatures in his care." -
Hard Candy Cowboy by Debra Meyer


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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  11:27:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message
Oh my! We do have similar stories! I'll be 50 this year and that ground ain't getting any softer! Luckily, only sore back must of the time. My husband keeps asking me why I keep torturing myself riding him when I have a perfectly bombproof 2nd horse that I could ride. I guess I like the challange. He really has a neat personality, very curious and smart as a whip. One thing about riding a challanging horse is you DO learn to ride, no sitting up there being a passenger. I don't have any history on him, (the guy I bought him from didn't even know his name), but I don't think he's had a lot of training and whoever rode him must have just got on and galloped everywhere. He has come a long way in three years, yet still so much more to go! I'm hoping he & I can grow old together (if he don't kill me first).
Tell me more about Max, he sounds intriging! How long have you had him?

Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  12:50:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
I'll try to make this clear but I don't know if it will be or not!

Pictures are better so draw a square about 5"x5" and put a cone in the center of it, just a small one. Draw a + in the square so that you quarter it. To do the clover pattern you can do it to the left or the right, which way you go with decide which side the cone is one and which way you circle. Start out with a pen at the bottom of the square where the + starts. Draw up towards the cones keeping it on the LEFT of your pen go past the cone about half way to the square's top line start to circle so that you make a circle to the LEFT in the top left quarter. But it isn't going to be a full circle because when you get to the -- line you will go past the cone again with it on your LEFT. This makes the 'circle' a tear drop or clover leaf shape with the cone as the center. You do that for each quarter. We did the left top so the next quater is the right top, then right bottom, left bottom and back up to the left top again. You end up with four shapes the same shape and size. To go to the right you just keep the cone on your right and circle to the right.
Because there is no start or stop place you can just keep going around without break. But you can get them sour on it. I find it helpful because in the faster gaits they have just enough time to make the mistake of speeding up before they have to slow down and balance for the turn. It's different then just plain circles. You can alter the size of the circles for different speeds or to make it harder or easier on them.

I have also altered on a horse that got wise to it by putting the circle and cone on different sides. Cone on Left, Circle to the Right. You and also leave the cone out do rail work and then come in and do half a pattern and then out to rail work. There is other things you can do with that single cone, spirl in and out from it, yeilding to it and then away on a straight line. I don't only use that cone for the pattern in a lesson so that the horse doesn't always know what we doing. One my very forward mare she likes to know just what we are doing though and pattern work like this helps her a lot.
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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  1:30:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message
Thanks, Stormie. I drew it and it makes sense. I will try when pasture dries out.

Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......
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hmeyer
Clinician



USA
2194 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  1:35:18 PM  Show Profile Send hmeyer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by tagnrocky


Tell me more about Max, he sounds intriging! How long have you had him?

OK, here's Max:

Max will be a 5 year old gelding this spring. His breed: Grade Horse Extraordinaire! He is actually 1/2 Tennessee Walker and 1/2 Who Knows What? When I got him in June, 2004 he was totally unbroke, had never been ridden. (I know, green horse + green rider = black & blue.)With the help of my trainer/instructor, Ed Chambers (the best), we have made great strides, and continue. He is right at 16 hh and probably 1250 lbs., plus or minus. I'm a pretty big guy and he has no trouble hauling my big bu++ around..... he is very powerful and big boned. We have gotten into horses as a family (my wife, grown son, and me) in the last 2 1/2 years, pretty late in life. We take turns hauling our horses (only have a 2 horse trailer) out to Ed Chambers' place each Sunday for lessons, and also have 160 acres to use for riding where we rent our barn. Although too old and stiff to ever become really great riders, we are having a ball learning new things. My wife says I can't wear my cowboy hat to lessons until I go at least 3 months without falling off!

"You learn a thing a day, you store up smart" - Festus Haggen

"A manís soul canít be hidden,
From the creatures in his care." -
Hard Candy Cowboy by Debra Meyer



Edited by - hmeyer on 02/01/2006 1:41:54 PM
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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  1:53:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message
What a coincidence! I was really pushing my neighbor to attend one of Ed's clinics last fall with me. EZ2SPOT told me he was good. We ended up not going (she has a trailer, I don't) and I was very disappointed. Really wanted to try some cow work with Rocky. I am nagging my husband for a trailer, so maybe I can work it out this year.
Cool snow picture. He's a good looking horse. Glad you are having success with him. You are a braver soul than I am, being that he was totally unbroke. Was he your first horse? Have you done cow work with him?

Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......
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hmeyer
Clinician



USA
2194 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  2:19:24 PM  Show Profile Send hmeyer a Private Message
Boy, it's really a small world! I just met EZ2SPOT out at Ed's a week ago Sunday!
Yes, we have worked with the cows out at Ed's on 3 occasions (one of those was at the clinic you were wanting to go to). In fact, we just did some of that this past Sunday. That is so fun. It was just me and my son and Ed this time, so we were able to slow things down and get some really good instruction. Ed also had one of his horses in there that he is just starting to train. He is amazing to watch.
Yes, Max is my first horse. My wife actually got her horse a few months before, but I am too big for him, so I had to wait on Max. We could not have done any of this without Ed's help. He is absolutely the best. You really should try to get out there and meet him and Cris, or go to one of their clinics. Have you met them? Or been to their website? Maybe we'll meet you out there some Sunday.


"You learn a thing a day, you store up smart" - Festus Haggen

"A manís soul canít be hidden,
From the creatures in his care." -
Hard Candy Cowboy by Debra Meyer


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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  4:21:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message
Thanks for the link. I would sure like to get to the basic horsemanship clinic in April. I e-mailed his wife last year and she said I was probably too advanced for the baby boomer class. It deals with a lot of fears (not that I don't have a healthy dose of that!). Does he have lessons every Sunday? I couldn't find anything about that on the link. I will definately try to get there this year. That's the second positive endorsement I've heard about him.
Happy trails,

Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  7:34:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
I thought of something else you teach that would be both a body control thing and a safety thing. Teach he to lead with his legs. You use a fat soft rope like a cotton lead rope, the really fat ones. Get him use to it bumbing his legs and rubbing his legs with it. When he is okay with it touch him like this you can run it around behind is leg so that you can hold both ends but it is not looped all the way around his leg in a complete circle. I normally start with a front leg. Let it hang about his ankle/fetlock area. Put just enough pressure on it to make him want to pick it up like you are pulling the foot forward. Release the pressure as soon as he starts to move it. At first it won't be a step, might not even be picking it up just a shift of weight to get that foot ready to move. Reward the littlest movement and build up. As he gets better at it you can lead him just just asking him to step with his feet when you put pressure on the rope. Do all four feet. This is useful to gain the body control but also is safety because if a horse trained this way gets a foot stuck in wire or a rope they normally don't get as hurt because they know to give to the pressure not pull away. From there you can go to hobble training which is useful and even to a single hobble and teaching him to lay down.
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  8:02:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
Hmeyer & Tagnrocky, I guess I should not complain about coming off of Warsong for the first time in the 2 1/2 years I've been riding her! Although, I think I have been riding long enough that I SHOULD have been able to stay on.

Tagnrocky, if you want to go to the April clinic or for a lesson on some Sunday, I would be happy to take you. Either one of my horses (there's a third, but she's not broke yet!)could always benefit from some work with Ed.

Stormie, intersting info on the cloverleaf, and a creative way of showing how it is done! I hope to try it when the ground dries out, too.

Re leading with a front leg, another useful exercise is to do the same with a hind leg, or to loop a rope around a back pastern & lift the let up that way. I did this with a very spooky QH gelding, and it served us well; while riding one day, he got his back legs tangled in some vines. I'm sure that without these exercises, he would have totally freaked out!

EZ2SPOT

Edited by - EZ2SPOT on 02/01/2006 8:07:53 PM
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Horsecrazygirl
Clinician



USA
2132 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  9:39:25 PM  Show Profile Send Horsecrazygirl a Private Message
ALLELUIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A Parelli person! at last!
Finnally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You don't know how glad I am to see that on This forum!!!!!!!!!!!


"In the steady gaze of the horse shines a silent eloquence that speaks of love and loyalty, strength and courage. It is the window that reveals to us how willing is his spirit, how generous his heart."

"The horse, gives you the freedom from all life's challenges." H.Z.


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beccajane
Trainer



USA
985 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  10:12:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit beccajane's Homepage Send beccajane a Private Message
Thank you for starting this thread! I learned alot from just reading. I am 52 and my mare literally stepped out from underneath me about a year and a half ago. We were riding along and the next thing I knew I was mid-air, thinking "Oh No" and she was looking at wondering why I was on the ground. Still haven't figured out why she moved so quick. She is cow bred so it really doesn't surprise me, but it really caught me off guard. She didn't buck, just stepped out from under me. So we have proceeded slowly from there. She, too, is a very smart horse. Not flighty--just matter of fact. After reading this, I have other things to work on now also. Thanks again!
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 02/01/2006 :  11:25:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
EZ

I did mean to do it with all four feet but I must have forgot that part. This is what I do before I start with the hobbles so they have a good idea of what they need to do when the hobbles put pressure on them.



Beccajane

I did that with a mare once. We were long trotting in the little pasture. One second she was under me the next I was hanging the air thinking "So this is how Coyote feels when he goes off the cliff...oh dang this is going to hurt!" It's amazing how much hang time when they do that. I never did figure out where my "Oops" sign was.
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2006 :  06:44:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Horsecrazygirl

ALLELUIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A Parelli person! at last!
Finnally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You don't know how glad I am to see that on This forum!!!!!!!!!!!





If you are referring to the "give to the rope on the legs" exercise, yes, I started doing that with the gelding after attending a Parelli clinic. But...

SURPRISE!!!!! SURPRISE!!!!

Parelli didn't "invent" this! Cowboys used to do it years ago to get horses used to a rope and to prevent them from freaking out if they got a foot caught in loop, etc.

I had a mare that was raised on a ranch in Granby, Colorado, and I did this with her when I started using a rope around her...though she seemed to already know it, so I'm guessing someone had done it with her before. Well, anyway, some time later at a place where I was boarding her, I found her standing in barbed wire. How long she had been there, I don't know, but she was just standing & waiting for someone to free her. Only had a very minor scratch or two.

EZ2SPOT
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bigyellerdog
Groomer

USA
42 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2006 :  07:27:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit bigyellerdog's Homepage Send bigyellerdog a Private Message
Hi ya'll. Very interesting subject here. I haven't visited the page in a while, my daughter and I have been riding Shadow for about three weeks. I let her ride him first, because these old bones break a lot easier than they used to. So far, he's walking around like an old man.

Don't forget that patience is a must, and getting mad won't help. Tagnrocky read, go to clinics and watch as many videos as you can. Don't feel bad about being thrown. There's an old quote: "Ant a horsae can't be rode and a cowboy who can't be throwed." How true.
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hmeyer
Clinician



USA
2194 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2006 :  09:28:55 AM  Show Profile Send hmeyer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by tagnrocky

Thanks for the link. I would sure like to get to the basic horsemanship clinic in April. I e-mailed his wife last year and she said I was probably too advanced for the baby boomer class. It deals with a lot of fears (not that I don't have a healthy dose of that!). Does he have lessons every Sunday? I couldn't find anything about that on the link. I will definately try to get there this year. That's the second positive endorsement I've heard about him.
Happy trails,


Yes, he gives lessons everyday except Saturday. These are usually private lessons by appointment, so you'd need to call them and set one up. Not sure what days he has openings. Would love to get to meet you out there some Sunday.

Bigyellerdog: Yeah that's the way I do it, too. If Max seems a little hyper one day, I'll have my 27 year old son ride him first and take the edge off. He has a lot better balance, more muscles that still work, and softer bones. Finally found something kids are useful for besides eating and making me worry! I've gotten to the point where I'd just as soon not hit the ground too much anymore. I think I've been pushing my luck on that.

"You learn a thing a day, you store up smart" - Festus Haggen

"A manís soul canít be hidden,
From the creatures in his care." -
Hard Candy Cowboy by Debra Meyer


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tagnrocky
Clinician



USA
1776 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2006 :  12:15:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit tagnrocky's Homepage Send tagnrocky a Private Message
Beccajane, thats exactly how my horse has gotten me off multiple times. He can spin on a dime when he spooks. I have been told he almost certainly is Foundation QH so thats why I think he would be good with cows. Both times he's bucked me off, I've been trail riding and just thrown in the air. No attitude at all. I think something has poked or brushed up against him. I think the leg/rope thing might help that. Thanks, Stormie.
EZ, I would LOVE to go to Ed's with you. I'd be more than willing to pay for gas, lunch and even a transport fee!
Bigyellardog, I have a many books and videos and have learned lots from them, but there is no substitute for someone teaching you first hand or just encouraging/advising you. I tend to stay in my little safety zone when working alone, which is most of the time. Heck he dragged that tire around for 4 days before I mounted up with it! That's why I like to set goals. To push myself from my comfort zone.

Nancy (and Tag & Rocky)
Free & easy down the trail I go......
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 02/02/2006 :  1:10:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
I didn't start the leg leading thing because of Parelli either. We were using that way before I heard of him. I had first learned about it from a Roper that I was showing me how to do his hobble training methods. He did this with all of his horses no matter if it was going into hobbles or not. They were started out fairly young with the idea and most took to it easily. But he said that he put this into his hobble training because he felt that it set the horses up for the correct reaction to them. He would always go on about how much he hated to see horses have hobbles slapped on their legs and then pushed until they faught it enough to fall down. I agree with him, a horse that is prepared to react the correct way is going to learn it better and be more willing to learn.


But I think that she was talking about someone above who said that they did Parelli games, I think the OP.
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2006 :  5:19:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
TnR, you might want to call Ed & see what times he has available...and then e-mail me and I'll see what I can do!

IMO, with trainers, I think the old saying about a bird in the hand being worth 2 in the bush, is really true! The nationally-known "celebrity" trainers are great, & have done so much to educate people about horses & training methods. But there is really no substitute to being able to actually work with a trainer & get some feedback on what you are doing right or wrong.

EZ2SPOT
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Horsecrazygirl
Clinician



USA
2132 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2006 :  8:34:59 PM  Show Profile Send Horsecrazygirl a Private Message
I don't care who invented what with Parelli!
I love the fact that at least someone else on this forum likes him and his games! And doesn't bash him!

Yay!!!!!!!!




"In the steady gaze of the horse shines a silent eloquence that speaks of love and loyalty, strength and courage. It is the window that reveals to us how willing is his spirit, how generous his heart."

"The horse, gives you the freedom from all life's challenges." H.Z.


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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2006 :  07:17:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
Parelli does teach a lot of good basic ground work and exercises to better communicate with your horse. His methods are very useful for those wishing to understand the basics of horsemanship. I do have reservations about bitless / bridleless riding by not so experienced students and the safety aspect of that. There are certainly lots of people who like his methods and you are not alone.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2006 :  1:21:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
That's what I don't care for too. The safety seems to be a big thing for them but not when it comes to them showing off. I watched one show that had a bunch of mares and foals. The mare were not herd mates and the foals were running loose. Many of these handlers were clearly green, a coupld looed and acted scared. There was many times were the mares were very close to fighting. And a few times where foals almost got hurt by other mares. To me that is not safe and was done just to show off. There are also many other areas where they do very dangerous things and that is telling people this is okay. It makes me wonder how many people go out and try these things and get them and their horses in trouble with it.

The basic ideas are good, no different then most trainers. It's the methods he teaches it that makes it different. It is more suited to the handler that needs a step by step program to learn by. I personally don't need that so the program would do little to me and drive me up the wall. But it works for others. If you look at all of the different big name trainers they just have a hook but they also have very different teaching styles. The reason they are all able to make it big is because everyone learns different so someone who can't learn from one can learn from another.
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