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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2006 :  1:11:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
What is it? A rope halter with knots and reins?

PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2006 :  2:04:23 PM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message
A Parelli halter is just a pressure halter that's waay over priced. I have a very similar PaintGal halter that's a bargain for half the price. ROFL!!

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2006 :  6:22:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
Yeah....Parelli-phites think that PP invented this style. It's been around forever tho and can't seriously be contributed to him.

-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2006 :  6:45:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
You can get similar halters from just about any tack shop. They usually come with a lead attached. You can tie the lead back to itself to make it a continuous rein. Clinton Anderson uses something like it, I believe.

EZ2SPOT
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2006 :  6:57:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
Fractured, click on http://www.dailyequine.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1912

This is the very last topic in "Trails" on page 6, "Saturday at Lost Bridge West"...the pic of me on Butterbaby shows a Parelli halter under my bridle.

EZ2SPOT
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2006 :  7:57:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
There are so many brands on the market now you can find ones just like them cheaper. I have a few different brands and styles, including one extra thin Diamond Brand. I like the Diamond halters the best I think.

You could use any rope halter and do Parelli since it is the training not the tack that gets you a trained horse. You could use a flat halter too if you wanted.

Yes Parelli misnames his halter as a hackamore when they use it to ride in. A halter is a halter no matter what a big name calls it.
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2006 :  12:55:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
EZ....your halter looks like a regular rope halter, no blood knots on the nose. Where would you attach the reins?
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2006 :  5:26:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
It does have knots on the nose, one on each side. The rein would be attached to the loop under the horse's jaw; right where you'd attach it for a lead, then loop it around the horse's neck, and tie it again to the halter. There is a way to do this, but I can't begin to describe it! It is one of those things where it is better to just show someone how it's done.

All I can say is that if you are thinking of trying it, do it in your arena or round pen, first! Most horses will do fairly well, until you have a disagreement on where to go...and then, unless you are very strong, the horse will probably win out!

Parelli is in his 50's now...wonder if he finds this a bit harder than he did when he was younger and probably stronger????

EZ2SPOT
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2006 :  10:44:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
Would think you'd need to really use your body cues and some leg aides to send the message and have a horse really tuned into that...similar to how you ride with dressage.....admit to just tying the lead to the halter loop with the POA before and in the arena he's not too bad since he will follow (well 75% of the time!) body direction and light leg aid if asked. Can't imagine using one on the trail...sounds like a recipe for disaster. I'm way to (chicken ) safety oriented.
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2006 :  4:48:23 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
The rope halter I bought on eBay ($7.00) has rings for reins. I didn't order mine with extra nose knots but she makes them with both xtra knots and rings OR with just the extra knots OR with just the rings OR with neither of them. I haven't tried riding Cloud with just the halter. Actually, I'm hesitant to do that because I'm afraid I could apply too much pressure (or not enough) -- mainly not knowing how much pressure to apply.

If Parelli is so known for riding in just a rope halter, then why is it every TV show I see of his, there he is with rope reins attached to slobber straps? Which are, in turn, attached to a bit??

There's something I really like about the slobber straps. I understand they give a very gentle warning to the horse before any bit pressure is applied. There's just enough weight of the reins so that when the slobber straps swing backward, the horse gets a chance to respond. Seems that would be pretty nice for both horse and rider.
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2006 :  7:54:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
I don't really think you would need to worry about applying too much pressure...in my own experience, the halters are not at all that severe.

Except for doing training exercises in the arena, when I was working with a husband and wife team of Parelli instructors, most riding was done in a snaffle bit. I think some people see the halter & get the mistaken impression that riding in a halter is the DEFINING aspect of Parelli training.

EZ2SPOT
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2006 :  11:56:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Parelli doesn't just ride in a halter. It's that he has people using them for both ground and saddle work until the they, both horse and rider, are ready for refinement and then he has them in bits. I noticed that a lot of the newer shows have them working other people's horses and in that case they probably don't have the time to work the horse up through the stages of the program so they just go with what the horse is use to. I'm not a fan of Parelli and one reason is the riding in a rope halter. I know that they don't just ride in it but I feel that a halter is a halter, not a bridle for a reason. It isn't as stable on the head for riding and that can cause problems.

The pressure shouldn't be too much. a lot of the sidepulls on the market are actually thinner then most rope halters are across the nose.
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2006 :  06:25:39 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Well, the rope halter I have is quarter-inch poly rope -- I believe the same material Parelli uses (vs. nylon or cotton). It is thin, and I believe it does apply pressure. What I was concerned about is reading that the bone structure in a horse's nose isn't that strong and very sensitive. I'd hate to see someone yanking on a thin piece over a horse's nose, like wouldn't that take a chance on injury or else some rather biting pain in a pretty sensitive area?
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2006 :  11:34:31 AM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
From what you all are saying, it sounds a little "gimmicky" and maybe a selling point for training program..."I have so much control I don't need a bit". If you don't want a bit and the horse isn't listening to halter, then why not use a hackamore or a bosal to insure some control?

Not knocking it if someone is expert rider with perfect horse. But if neither, why do it at all? Not seeing the logic with using one if you have problems, unless it is so gentle horse loves it and listens better...if that is possible.
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2006 :  12:09:00 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Bones, I don't know who you are referring to in terms of "gimicky." Do you mean just the draw toward riding with a rope halter? Or do you mean Parelli-ites (some) thinking that's what he's advocating? What I said is, if he advocates it, then why do I see him always riding with a bit (and slobber straps) on his RFD shows.

As for my draw toward trying riding with just a rope halter, speaking purely for myself, I dunno, just seems like a fun thing to try... as in "novelty." I really can't imagine taking Cloud much out of her paddock with one. I don't have the confidence either in how she'd react or whether I would have any control at all. If I was the one you were addressing, I sure don't have any axe to grind on it. Could be one of those things where I'd find myself on the ground and say, "Waallll, it seemed like a good idea at the time." ROFL.
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2006 :  9:42:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
OTW

It's a soft rope with no leverage. The pressure that you put on the reins is basicly what the horse feels. So it depends on how much pressure you use. Now how much is that? Try having your daugther test it out on you. Place the noseband of the halter around your arm or thigh and have her put different degrees of pressure by pull on the heel knot. Granted this are not as bony areas but you get the idea and the feel of it. Also the soft bony area is the lower part not where the nose band of a halter would ride. You would never want a halter or hackamore on the soft area.
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2006 :  01:36:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
OTW
Talking about clinicians (Parelli or whoever)demonstrating a gimmick, not you trying it. Did you see him using one and then go get one and try it?? If so, guess his "gimmick" worked...in the sense that you bought one I'm not at that level of riding nor do I have the horse to do it with. Kind of like the bridleless riding on a trail idea....futile for me and probably end up ugly.

Not downing anyone for bitless halters or trying them. Just doesn't make sense to me to use on a horse that wasn't listening to begin with. Been a sucker for several gadgets seen for horses, cleaning, etc. over time myself... most of them still sitting in the garage Pretty good salespeople I guess! Or pretty gullible me more like it!
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2006 :  06:01:39 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Well, I did not buy a Parelli one, and actually he didn't influence me at all, Red Hawk and EZ did. We were talking about having a halter with on a trail ride, and RH posted a photo of her and EZ, where EZ had a rope halter under her bridle. Seemed like a great idea, so I got one on eBay for $7. The maker makes them w/rings and I thought those couldn't hurt to have, so ordered mine with them. Not the extra nose knots tho.

Just to clarify, because I don't want to go into a debate where one isn't warranted, the IDEA of riding without a bit appeals to me. As mentioned on another thread, it's all that freedom, trust, GaWaNi fantasy stuff that's a tad irresistable... in theory. Would I go taking off with just a halter? Not in a zillion years. Bitless BRIDLE, however, appeals to me a lot, but I have the same concern there (more so) about being unintentionally and unknowingly rough on a tender nose. And also about suddenly finding that I don't have the control. So for making philosophical statements, I'm pretty much in the tried-and-true camp. Intrigued with bitless? Yup. Ready to put it to much of a test other than curiosity? Nope. LOL. (Tad of a chicken here.) ;-)
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2006 :  11:14:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
AHA!!! OTW, truth comes out! GA Wa Ni Pony boy fascination!!

He is coming to an Expo I think in Feb....missed him last year and maybe I should try to see what he's all about (boy, he's a whole other thread, huh?)
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hmeyer
Clinician



USA
2194 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2006 :  11:22:02 AM  Show Profile Send hmeyer a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by fracturedbones

GA Wa Ni Pony boy fascination!!

He is coming to an Expo I think in Feb....missed him last year and maybe I should try to see what he's all about (boy, he's a whole other thread, huh?)



You talk about gimmicks. Now there's one.... IMO.

"You learn a thing a day, you store up smart" - Festus Haggen

"A manís soul canít be hidden,
From the creatures in his care." -
Hard Candy Cowboy by Debra Meyer


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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2006 :  1:13:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
hmeyer...curious as to what is his gimmick? Have a coffee table type book of his, mostly pics of horses and owner stories, so not a whole lot on his philosophy and don't know much about his methods. I figured the "draw" was Indian mystique, and not being hard on the eyes. (I'm too old to care...mother material to him and me!) Getting old...like looking at the horses more....

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hmeyer
Clinician



USA
2194 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2006 :  2:31:45 PM  Show Profile Send hmeyer a Private Message
Well, let me preface by saying that this is strictly my opinion. He may be OK, but from what I've seen, his gimmick is just as you said, the draw is the Indian mystique and his looks and his appeal, primarily, to the women. He mainly writes books, tells about Native American legend and lore, and puts on a show. I don't think his horsemanship could stand on it's merits in the way that some, such as the Dorrance's, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman, and others could without the showmanship gimmick. I'm not even sure that he's really all that much Indian (I heard maybe 1/8th). He admits to being of mixed blood, but doesn't really say how mixed. You might think I'm just a jealous guy, with his attraction to the women and all, but really I gave up on that pipe dream quite some time ago. I just think he's more showman than horseman.

"You learn a thing a day, you store up smart" - Festus Haggen

"A manís soul canít be hidden,
From the creatures in his care." -
Hard Candy Cowboy by Debra Meyer


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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2006 :  4:22:51 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Bones, not really fascination, he's young enough to be... well, he's young. I think he's all fluff, truth be known. I guess my well-couched sarcasm on the "My Horse Won't Stop Grazing In His Rope Halter" thread didn't come across as such, but I mentioned the photos of PBoy gazing meaningfully into his horse's soul in great commune, etc.etc.etc. To me the draw is the IDEA of what he portrays, not the costume with the back-lighting, and I agree with HM that it's gimic. That said, however, I've never seen one of his shows (missed Equine Affaire and hope to get it next year). For all I know he really does whatever he portrays. I'd be more convinced though without the waterfall and backlighting and the buckskin costumes with the feathers in the hair.

HM, as males go, he's "okay." Not without the feathers in the hair tho, lol. I mean therein lies the charm.

I'm sure he has something going for him beyond the fluff though. I do know his books make pretty coffee table books. They're sort of known for that.

Now if you want a total knock-down, drop-dead male fox, give me Dennis Reis annnnnytime! LOL.
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2006 :  10:04:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
It's the Indian mystique and the good looks...not that Pony Boy isn't a good trainer, but, as far as I have been able to determine from his book and video, he really doesn't seem to do things much differently than many of the other celebrity trainers out there.

LOL! Riding bareback with just a rope halter does sound so neat, but not very practical for most of us. I, for one, can barely get on even with a saddle, let alone jump on without!

There are some people in the ITRA who do trail ride in rope halters, and it works well for them. The key word is "works"!!! It just doesn't work for a lot of horses. One advantage, in the winter, is that you don't need to worry about warming a bit. And it is a real time-saver, since the halter is already on the horse.

OTW, if you want to try it, why not? Just make sure you are in an enclosed area for the first time!

EZ2SPOT
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2006 :  10:18:20 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by EZ2SPOT

It's the Indian mystique and the good looks...not that Pony Boy isn't a good trainer, but, as far as I have been able to determine from his book and video, he really doesn't seem to do things much differently than many of the other celebrity trainers out there.

LOL! Riding bareback with just a rope halter does sound so neat, but not very practical for most of us. I, for one, can barely get on even with a saddle, let alone jump on without!

There are some people in the ITRA who do trail ride in rope halters, and it works well for them. The key word is "works"!!! It just doesn't work for a lot of horses. One advantage, in the winter, is that you don't need to worry about warming a bit. And it is a real time-saver, since the halter is already on the horse.

OTW, if you want to try it, why not? Just make sure you are in an enclosed area for the first time!

EZ2SPOT



Awww, I think it would be kinda fun. But only just for the novelty of it. What I keep being attracted to is that Dr. Cooke Bitless bridle (the beta, not the leather). They're fairly expensive for what I think of as a novelty item, and I actually don't know if I would EVER have confidence in it. The nose band rides low for control but would worry me if you ever had to pull back on it very hard. When I read reviews (not the ones on their website, other ones) -- some people absolutely LOVE the thing. They claim their horses are ever so happy with them. Then along comes someone who says their horse "learned" to pull right through the thing.

I don't know why we can't just be happy with the tack we have. What IS there about us (because I'm not alone) where we just have this never ending draw to try different stuff. Always something! I'm as bad as anyone on that.

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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2006 :  1:02:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Trust in a bitless style is the same trust you need to have with a bit. A bit does not contral a horse any more then a bitless style does.

I ride a lot bitless. I have a whole section of bitless styles. If someone makes I have to have it to try and I have a few of my own design also. Sidepulls, Obizxy(can't spell it!) jaw ropes, Indian Hackamores, Scawbrigs, bosals, hacks, THE Bitless Bridle(three different designs),......dang I have a lot because I can't remember the rest. I believe that a well educated horse is one that is educated enough to use snaffles, curbs and bitless styles. Not saying one that can't isn't well trained just not as well rounded when it comes to bridles.

Mainly I use sidepulls and bosals, the first simple and easy and the second something to show in. Before Coal was hurt she had 5 bridles, 3 where bitless(bosal, warner hack, sidepull) and then a snaffle and a curb. We spent most of the time in the sidepull and snaffle. This is a horse that when I got her she was a wreck. Labled as hyper, high strung, and never to be a calm riding horse. I went right to a sidepull. I had to her mouth was so messed up. I even barrel race her with it. I have been called crazy for trusting her with it but like I said the trust is the same, bit or not. That is what people forget about when they see ones like Pony Boy and Parelli. They wish for that trust to ride without a bit but I hope you have that trust with the bit. A couple pounds of metal can't spot a 1,200 lb horse when he doesn't want to.


THE Bitless Bridle is not that bad of a design. Your contral comes from the jaw straps not the nose. It works on some pressure points, has a stronger pulley system then they lead you to believe but not a bad design. It should not be so low that it is indanger of damaging the "Soft" part of the nose, that is lower down. You place the nose band well on the bone area. The mouth is an area you have to be more worried about then the nose(with the noseband in the correct place). Test it out. Push on the bridge of your nose with one finger and with your other hand press on the area behind your teeth with one finger. Which feels it stronger faster and which feels it for longer after the pressure is released. And our noses are not the same as a horse. That area on a horse is bone. Here is another test. Find a hanging scale like a fish scale. Hook it to something so that it is in line with your hand like the horse's mouth. Grab the other hook and pull on it as if you are directing the horse. See how much your normal pull is, make it lighter and stronger and see how many pounds you are using. Get that feel, have someone else get that feel and then use it with the halter and bit on your arm. This is a great test for riders that are heavy handed without knowing it. In a none leverage correctly adjusted bitless bridle a rider would have a very hard tim putting enough pressure to damage the nose. The damger comes more from over use of pressure, never releaseing it and trying to hold the horse with the bridle.
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