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Wendy
Tenderfoot



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2006 :  07:05:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit Wendy's Homepage Send Wendy a Private Message
OK, recently I posted an issue with my horse bucking. He is 9 yrs old and this was the first time he has ever done that. I believe the bucking has subsided. I have new issues with him. I trail ride with some friends quite often and their horses are quite, responsive, do anything they ask of them. My horse is spooky, hard-headed and does very little of what I ask of him. My horse has issues with ditches, water/mud and backing when I ask him to do something that he does not want to do. Does anyone out there have any suggestions on what I can do to get him over a ditch (he won't even go over small ditches and if by chance he does go over them, he jumps them), through water and stop the backing issue. If there are any dvds out there that anyone could recommend, I would be willing to purchase one. I have had this horse for over 1 1/2 yrs now. I do not want to get ride of him, I care deeply for this horse, but trail riding has become for aggravating than fun. PLEASE HELP!!!!! I will try anything! He is an ARAB/APP mix, 9 yrs old.

Thanks in advance!
Wendy

PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2006 :  09:17:10 AM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message
Sounds like he's got your number!

The basic "rule of thumb" advice is to make the right thing easy & the wrong thing hard for him.

This takes TIME & patience and you aren't going to fix it on one ride. You will have to make rides into training sessions.

When he refuses and backs... keep him backing. Back him till he wants to stop then back him somemore. He's the one that wanted to back to start with so let him but you decide when to stop and that should be after he wants to. EVERY time he backs, keep him backing.

When he refuses a ditch, work him in small circles then let him "rest" beside the ditch. When he refuses again, work him somemore. He needs to learn that not crossing the ditch results in work. When he does cross it, praise him & let him "rest" if only for a few seconds.

quote:
My horse is spooky, hard-headed and does very little of what I ask of him.....




I think your problem goes much deeper than him refusing to cross ditches. He doesn't respect you and doesn't trust you. How much ground work do you do with him?

You can desensitize him to "spooky" objects in an arena and at the same time build trust. Tie plastic bags on the fence, drag chairs, tarps, ropes .....anything you can think of into the arena & let him get used to them. Work him when he won't approach an object and let him rest as he move toward it. It may take a LONG time at first but as he learns what causes work and how to earn rest, he'll begin to make progress more quickly.

Remember: Make the right behavior easy & the undesirable behavior hard. His "punishment" is work and his "reward" is rest.

Keep us posted!

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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Horsecrazygirl
Clinician



USA
2132 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2006 :  7:23:51 PM  Show Profile Send Horsecrazygirl a Private Message
I also have trail "issues"
Whenever I want to go on a trail ride my mare just stops and munches the first sign of a good grass crop.
Whenever I shorten the reins she either rips the reins right out or bucks me off.
Any ideas?

Thanks!

"In the steady gaze of the horse shines a silent eloquence that speaks of love and loyalty, strength and courage. It is the window that reveals to us how willing is his spirit, how generous his heart."

"The horse, gives you the freedom from all life's challenges." H.Z.


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Wendy
Tenderfoot



USA
8 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2006 :  7:38:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit Wendy's Homepage Send Wendy a Private Message
Thanks Paintgal! I will try your suggestions. I don't do much ground work with him. I told myself after this last trail ride that I need to do more ground work with him as much as possible. You see, I know what happens on the trail. My horse starts acting all crazy which in turn makes me nervous, when I get nervous, he gets even more nervous. It's a horrible cycle. I don't know how not to get nervous with him, sometimes he just acts insane! I really appreciate your advice and I agree with you. I will keep you posted!

As for Horsecrazygal - I believe you probably need to listen to Paintgal also, you probably need more groundwork with your horse also.
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2006 :  12:54:58 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
Horsecazy: I think both Lyons and Anderson suggest putting them to work soon as the head dips. Cirlces with direction changes, etc. Begin to assoc. head dip with work and supposed to knock it off. On leading down to my arena, the POA is the worst...and the fjord tries his share since those nice little green shoots coming up...backing and hind quarter yielding have worked pretty good...they at least think twice and after making them move, they decide it's a hassle to eat after a couple tries. Be consistant with doing some sort of work. Hope that helps.

On trail....got my problems and from everything read and said, it takes time, ground time, saddle time to build the horses (and your) confidence. Maybe trying to take horse too far too soon and he panics. You could try putting him to work (direction changes). Safer would be the ground work route, increase distance slowly from home and return, going out with a good buddy and doing the separation thing from buddy (20 ft, return, 30 ft, return, etc.) also is a technique. Mind you I have similar problems and they take time to correct, and consistancy. Was doing really good with the pony on this...then not riding him a while...all they learn goes out the door pretty quickly. I will also walk them to get used to the area, noises etc and become familiar. Kind of a way of desenitizing both of us...(good exercise too for both of us...) Just some ideas.
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2006 :  1:14:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
Wendy
I missed some of what you were asking in your post. RE: DVD's, Anderson (alright you DE oldies..all saying there she goes again...just cover your eyes!) has 3 DVD's that might be helpful. First is "Gaining Respect and Control". Focus on your relationship and communication with horse, desensitizing, more respectful horse. Can't say enought good things about it. Second one: Riding with Confidence: Pretty basic and haven't seen the Part II yet, but will help you with gas pedal, suppling, more control, one reined stop, control. New DVD: don['t have the exact name, but it is correcting problems either on the trail and under saddle and another one is something about 80 things horses do and how to correct...just can't remember the name. Gal told me the 80 thing DVD is a "must have", and I am guessing compiled info from many DVds of his. Think the newest one for general training. www.downunderhorsemanship.com I think is the website, then you may be able to check ebay.

People complain about the expense of trainer DVDs, but think how much a paid trainer/putting in training costs (not a bad idea either)....and a well trained horse that is safe IS priceless. Those ER visits would pay for ALOT of training and DVDs when you think about it!

If he is not listening...I would start with "Gaining Respect and Control" . No magic fix, you have to do the groundwork...but you will be amazed at how and what they learn...it really is neat. You learn to like your horse again!!

Edited by - fracturedbones on 01/18/2006 1:17:08 PM
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hmeyer
Clinician



USA
2194 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2006 :  1:57:31 PM  Show Profile Send hmeyer a Private Message
Great post, Paintgal. Some excellent advice.
Wendy, also in the arena you can practice going over simulated trail obstacles such as tarps to walk over (representing water), 4x4 posts laid down to represent logs, wooden bridge laid flat on the ground. Also put a 4x4 under the bridge to make it rock like a teeter-totter. That's a good one!
Be sure to work on your stops and one-rein stops, so he knows to STOP when YOU want him to, not when he wants to.

"You learn a thing a day, you store up smart" - Festus Haggen

"A manís soul canít be hidden,
From the creatures in his care." -
Hard Candy Cowboy by Debra Meyer


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Horsecrazygirl
Clinician



USA
2132 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2006 :  8:19:46 PM  Show Profile Send Horsecrazygirl a Private Message
Ok now the groundwork is fine but moving her feet is one thing I haven't tried.

Thanks!


"In the steady gaze of the horse shines a silent eloquence that speaks of love and loyalty, strength and courage. It is the window that reveals to us how willing is his spirit, how generous his heart."

"The horse, gives you the freedom from all life's challenges." H.Z.


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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2006 :  07:46:35 AM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Horsecrazygirl

I also have trail "issues"
Whenever I want to go on a trail ride my mare just stops and munches the first sign of a good grass crop.
Whenever I shorten the reins she either rips the reins right out or bucks me off.
Any ideas?

Thanks!



What type of bit are you using and if you use a curb strap, how tight is it?

Don't wait till she drops her head to snatch the reins up. Keep a light pressure on them so if she lowers her head, she will hit the pressure. Don't "give" with her or pull back but continue to hold the reins in the same position.

As Fractured mentioned, make her work when she reaches for grass. The trick is to anticipate the move & be ready BEFORE she gets her head down. You can't let her get her head down, grab grass, yank her head up, then circle because she'll associate lifting her head with circling. Ride using both hands on the reins and as soon as she dips her head for grass, apply pressure with one rein and circle her.

You might have to practice this in an arena or small area with piles of hay.

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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Horsecrazygirl
Clinician



USA
2132 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2006 :  8:08:31 PM  Show Profile Send Horsecrazygirl a Private Message
I don't use a bit at all.
I use a Parelli halter.
Yes I think I will try the hay...It will be easier.
And yes I do keep a short rein but she just slams her head down...

Thanks Again!


"In the steady gaze of the horse shines a silent eloquence that speaks of love and loyalty, strength and courage. It is the window that reveals to us how willing is his spirit, how generous his heart."

"The horse, gives you the freedom from all life's challenges." H.Z.


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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2006 :  10:35:35 PM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Horsecrazygirl

I don't use a bit at all.
I use a Parelli halter.



ummmmm.... that might be part of the problem. I've yet to see the Parelli faithful doing any riding outside of an arena with only a halter. What's Pat say about the problem you're having?

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2006 :  04:46:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
Horsecrazygirl, I used to ride that way...and still do, occasionally (with a rope halter). Only around home or in an arena, however. And I think I COULD ride that way on the trails, in an emergency, such as my bridle breaking...

However, I found that over time, most horses will begin pulling against the halter...even a snaffle bit will give you you more control from the saddle, and I recommend going to that. Although a lot of people associate Parelli with bitless riding, he does also advocate the use of a snaffle.

EZ2SPOT
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Horsecrazygirl
Clinician



USA
2132 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2006 :  7:02:57 PM  Show Profile Send Horsecrazygirl a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by PaintGal

quote:
Originally posted by Horsecrazygirl

I don't use a bit at all.
I use a Parelli halter.



ummmmm.... that might be part of the problem. I've yet to see the Parelli faithful doing any riding outside of an arena with only a halter. What's Pat say about the problem you're having?



Well many riders are successful on doing that.


EZ: A Parelli Halter is a rope halter.


"In the steady gaze of the horse shines a silent eloquence that speaks of love and loyalty, strength and courage. It is the window that reveals to us how willing is his spirit, how generous his heart."

"The horse, gives you the freedom from all life's challenges." H.Z.


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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2006 :  7:36:00 PM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Horsecrazygirl

quote:
Originally posted by PaintGal

quote:
Originally posted by Horsecrazygirl

I don't use a bit at all.
I use a Parelli halter.



ummmmm.... that might be part of the problem. I've yet to see the Parelli faithful doing any riding outside of an arena with only a halter. What's Pat say about the problem you're having?



Well many riders are successful on doing that.


EZ: A Parelli Halter is a rope halter.





Apparently you aren't one of them. If you can't control your horse then you are putting your horse and yourself at risk of injury. Just because some people & some horses are successful using a training method or a particular piece of tack doesn't mean that ALL people & horses can or should use them.

Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 01/20/2006 :  8:30:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
I WAS talking about a rope Parelli halter...for about 2 years, I worked with a couple who were Parelli trainers. The halter just doesn't give enough control for some horses. I would say it works best for horses that were started that way.

The horse I had at the time that I took to the training sessions was 6 or 7 when we started. I think I was in denial for quite awhile about the rope halter...just could not bring myself to admit it wasn't controlling him! Like PaintGal says, it apparently isn't working for you, either....

One of my mares was started in a rope halter, & she responds fairly well in one. In fact, when she gets upset & nervous, it sometimes helps to take the bridle off and ride her in the halter for awhile. Like I said, I don't think I would do this on the trails.

Older mare, now 16, was ridden for the first time in a rope halter when she was 8. I really don't have much control over her in one...she lugs on it, puts her head down & tries to graze, etc...in short, it just never worked for her.

EZ2SPOT
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2006 :  07:03:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
I am NOT a Parelli fan. He has quite a following and seems quite successful but my personal belief is that rding a horse without the traditional controls developed over centuries is just a Fad and can be dangerouse for some inexperienced riders. Like any trainning advice, it works with some horse and rider combinations but not for all.
John Lyons has a more practical approach that seems to have more long term success and is based on more traditional training basics that make make sense to me.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2006 :  07:54:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
There are a few things that I like about Parelli; the ground work, for one thing. I have noticed that a few years ago, John Lyons copied some of Parelli's ground excercises, just called them something different.

Doing the ground excercises does allow you to get the horse's attention on you before you get on, and gives you a chance to gauge the horse's mood...gee, if I'd done a little of that ground work before riding Warsong that day I broke my arm, the accident probably never would have happened!

But I agree with you about some of it being a fad & not safe...

Also, if something isn't working for you, then it isn't working for you. Success doesn't come from continuing to do things that don't work...!!!! It comes from finding methods that do.

EZ2SPOT

Edited by - EZ2SPOT on 01/21/2006 10:09:47 AM
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2006 :  1:30:02 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
Hook; I prefer John Lyons, too, but I have seen Clinton Anderson do practically the same thing Lyons did with the same problem. I do believe all of them are basically the same. It's just that there are minor differences between them to achieve the same thing.

One last word: John Lyons always said his methods were not iron clad and that if you have a method that is working for you, don't change it. I read that in his book "Lyons on Horses", heard him mention it in his first symposium video collection, and when I saw him live at the Hoosier Horse Fair.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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Horsecrazygirl
Clinician



USA
2132 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2006 :  8:07:23 PM  Show Profile Send Horsecrazygirl a Private Message

[ Originally posted by PaintGal

Apparently you aren't one of them. If you can't control your horse then you are putting your horse and yourself at risk of injury. Just because some people & some horses are successful using a training method or a particular piece of tack doesn't mean that ALL people & horses can or should use them.
[/quote]

quote:
Originally posted by EZ2SPOT[/i]

I WAS talking about a rope Parelli halter.

EZ2SPOT
[/quote]

OK! Don't Ya'll get your knickers in a twist!
I never said I was one of them Paint,
What you gave me was a good start everyone you don't have to go into details!

What I really wonder is why is it so hard and stressful trying to get help with a probelm here!

I've said my peice.
Thank you one and all again.

"In the steady gaze of the horse shines a silent eloquence that speaks of love and loyalty, strength and courage. It is the window that reveals to us how willing is his spirit, how generous his heart."

"The horse, gives you the freedom from all life's challenges." H.Z.


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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2006 :  8:16:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
Hey, Horsecrazygirl, I don't think it is hard to get help here, but so often, you seem to contradict yourself! On one hand, you admit you have no control over your horse, and ask for advice, and on the other, you don't seem to be willing to listen when somebody points out WHY you have no control over the horse.

You may have taken the advice as a put-down, which it certainly wasn't meant to be.

EZ2SPOT

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Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2006 :  9:42:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message

[/quote]

What you gave me was a good start everyone you don't have to go into details!

What I really wonder is why is it so hard and stressful trying to get help with a probelm here!

[/quote]

HCG- You asked for help, but don't want anyone to go into details?? I don't understand that philosophy.

And it seems to me that you are getting loads of help, or advice, really good advice, but apparently it isn't the advice that you are looking for so you place the blame on those offering....whining "why is it so hard to get help".

<This is my blue face...in that: I've said it til I'm blue in the face...> You get what you pay for here, HCG...and none of us is taking home a paycheck by being here, trying to help, long-distance without ever having seen your horse and with not a clue as to YOUR ability or that of your horse.

When someone asks for advice, help or opinion, they should take what they can use, or what works for them and NOT snap at the replies that are meant to help.

Apologies to Wendy for this interruption of her topic.


-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"
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PaintGal
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
5300 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2006 :  11:51:50 PM  Show Profile Send PaintGal a Private Message
quote:
I don't use a bit at all.
I use a Parelli halter.


quote:
OK! Don't Ya'll get your knickers in a twist!
I never said I was one of them Paint,
What you gave me was a good start everyone you don't have to go into details!

What I really wonder is why is it so hard and stressful trying to get help with a probelm here!

I've said my peice.
Thank you one and all again.


You're the one that said you have problems.

You're the one that said you use a Parelli halter.

You are right about not being one of "them" since you specified "successful" which does not apply to you. My apologies.

Perhaps you should be concerned with the details.

It's not hard & stressful to get help here. It might be hard & stressful for some to accept the help if it's not what they want to hear.

and most importantly......

I DO NOT WEAR KNICKERS!!!


Karen ~ Trails
&
Joe Paint Gelding
Paoli, IN


"My treasures do not sparkle or glitter, they shine in the sun and neigh in the night."



~~~~~~
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Horsecrazygirl
Clinician



USA
2132 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2006 :  8:33:13 PM  Show Profile Send Horsecrazygirl a Private Message
I certainly have not!
I have taken your advice. And thats all I needed.
No need for anything else.You said to try the hay deal and thats all.
I didn't ask for who likes who better,Who has better training to try to tick me off or try to switch me around,I don't need that! Thats what I mean about stressful!.

Sorry about the knicker thing.I didn't know.

Thank you again but please don't make this harder.



"In the steady gaze of the horse shines a silent eloquence that speaks of love and loyalty, strength and courage. It is the window that reveals to us how willing is his spirit, how generous his heart."

"The horse, gives you the freedom from all life's challenges." H.Z.


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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2006 :  02:05:36 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Horsecrazygirl

I certainly have not!
I have taken your advice. And thats all I needed.
No need for anything else.You said to try the hay deal and thats all.
I didn't ask for who likes who better,Who has better training to try to tick me off or try to switch me around,I don't need that! Thats what I mean about stressful!.


{emphasis added}

Wheeeeeeeee!

Q: I can't stop my car. What should I do?
A: Hmmmmm. What kind of brakes are you using?
Q: My car doesn't have any brakes.
A: Well, there's your problem. You need brakes.
Q: Why are you bringing up all these side issues?
A: Side issues? What side issues? I'm talking brakes. Cars need brakes.
Q: Why are you attacking me?
A: I'm just trying to answer your question.
Q: All I asked was how to stop my car.
A: And I said use the brakes.
Q: I didn't ask you about brakes, I asked you about stopping my car!

Not that bits are brakes, but sheeesh, this is downright painful to watch. HCG you seem really frustrated, and I for one hate to see that. However, one thing seems established. You can't stop your horse from grazing when you're in the saddle. You also, coincidentally, have no bit in her mouth. People are suggesting these two things may be related. But I take it rope halters are... off limits.

So I gotta ask... what are the rules you want followed for answering your question? I'd like to know this for my own self, because you see, then I could go back to the thread, "why shouldn't I pull a horse trailer with a minivan?" ALL I would have had to do is ban any discussion of unibodied vehicles!

DANG!!!!!!!! Where were you when I needed you? ;-)



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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2006 :  06:43:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
OTW, you seem to have summed up the situation!

HCG, are you actually working with a Parelli instructor, or are you working on your own through videos, etc.? If you have an actual instructor, I am wondering why he/she has not been able to help you with this.

Back when I was involved in Parelli training, it was no crime to use a snaffle bit (though the level tests were done in a halter). In fact, if you look through the pages of Pat's book, you will see numerous examples of him using a bit.

EZ2SPOT
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Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2006 :  07:58:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
OTW-
Fantastic!

I wanna know the rules too!


-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"
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