Daily Equine Forum Visit Horse Saddle Shop Read Horse Saddle Shops Blog Horse Saddle Shop Twitter Horse Saddle Shop Facebook Image Map
Daily Equine Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics |Recent Messages | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Caring and Owning Horses
 Horse Training
 BITS
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 5

Frost
Beginning Rider



USA
115 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  1:31:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frost's Homepage Send Frost a Private Message
Did just go to gaitsofgold.com website and look at the Imus Comfort Gait Bit, and for all practicality, it's a Tom Thumb.... unless you attach the headstall and the reins to the same loop, but what's the point of the shanks then??

Here's a little tidbit on bits. Stay away from all stainless steel bits. They don't rust and that's the problem. Look shiney for you and I but the horse really don't like them, and get dry mouth much easier. Use bits with natural iron "Sweet Iron" and maybe a bit of grooved in copper, to increase salivations.

I'm sure that she has gotten several praise on the bit, but just looking at the desing, it's not for my horse. A solid shanked curb bit, also called a "grazing bit" far betters the Comfort Bit in my book. The shanked curb is for horses that have a bit more seasoned riding on them and have little difficulty understaing the bit cues.. my take



Vern

Former Nebraskan...
"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket."

'May the HORSE be with you!' Gentle as possible, yet firm as necessary.
"I like to ride bareback, and sometimes I even wear a shirt!"

Edited by - Frost on 11/27/2005 1:43:16 PM
Go to Top of Page

Frost
Beginning Rider



USA
115 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  1:31:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frost's Homepage Send Frost a Private Message
Did just go to gaitsofgold.com website and look at the Imus Comfort Gait Bit, and for all practicality, it's a Tom Thumb.... unless you attach the headstall and the reins to the same loop, but what's the point of the shanks then??

Here's a little tidbit on bits. Stay away from all stainless steel bits. They don't rust and that's the problem. Look shiney for you and I but the horse really don't like them, and get dry mouth much easier. Use bits with natural iron "Sweet Iron" and maybe a bit of grooved in copper, to increase salivations.

I'm sure that she has gotten several praise on the bit, but just looking at the desing, it's not for my horse. A solid shanked curb bit, also called a "grazing bit" far betters the Comfort Bit in my book. The shanked curb is for horses that have a bit more seasoned riding on them and have little difficulty understaing the bit cues.. my take



Vern

Former Nebraskan...
"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket."

'May the HORSE be with you!' Gentle as possible, yet firm as necessary.
"I like to ride bareback, and sometimes I even wear a shirt!"

Edited by - Frost on 11/27/2005 1:43:16 PM
Go to Top of Page

Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  4:05:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
I kinda like the looks of the comfort gait bit. I think I maight get one to see if Hook likes it. I do have one very similar that I am going to try first. It looks like it would be quite gentle but also add a bit more stoppoing power when we are running flat out heading for the next barrel and need a bit more rate.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
Go to Top of Page

Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  4:05:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
I kinda like the looks of the comfort gait bit. I think I maight get one to see if Hook likes it. I do have one very similar that I am going to try first. It looks like it would be quite gentle but also add a bit more stoppoing power when we are running flat out heading for the next barrel and need a bit more rate.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
Go to Top of Page

Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  4:08:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
Hey Frost;

I like your new signature saying "MAY THE HORSE BE WITH YOU". I guess that's the goal in more ways than one.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
Go to Top of Page

Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
6115 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  4:08:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
Hey Frost;

I like your new signature saying "MAY THE HORSE BE WITH YOU". I guess that's the goal in more ways than one.

Hook(ed)......on Horses

"The best things in life are nearest: Breath in your nostrils, light in your eyes, flowers at your feet, duties at your hand, the path of right just before you. Then do not grasp at the stars, but do life's plain, common work as it comes, certain that daily duties and daily bread are the sweetest things in life. " Author: Robert Louis Stevenson
Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  4:25:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
I didn't get to read everything fully but there is a few points I want to make.

The best way I have found to discribe the different bits is this:

Snaffle- direct non leverage pressure. The headstall, reins and mouth piece all attach at the same level. Any style of mouth piece but there is no real gag action.

Curb bit- large group that many bits will fall into even if in other groups but NEVER will a snaffle be a curb bit. A bit that is designed with the headstall, mouth piece and reins attacted at 2 or more levels. The leverage is decided by many factors. Requires a curb strap to work correctly which causes curb pressure-the reason for the name. Can have any mouth piece style

Pelham-a Curb bit that is is designed with two sets of rein rings, one so called "snaffle rein ring" and a curb rein ring. designed for the use of two reins but many times used with one or with a connector strap.

Gag bits:
True Gag-mouth piece is set on a cheek ring, half ring or attacked directly to the headstall in a way that the mouth piece or ring slides on the cheek pieces. Normally there is a stop so that it doesn't keep going. It is not meant to gag the horse but a poor rider can make it do that. It puts loud lip and poll pressure. When used correctly it is a heads down bit but many times ends up making the horse pop the head up.
Gag action-normally a curb of some kind that allows the mouth piece to slide on a section of the shank. Many times seen on barrel bits and combo bits.

Combo bits-bits that are normally a mix of bit and noseband. Normally curb but not always and many have Gag Action.

That covers most of the bit groups. The trouble comes when the catalog and tack store places try to group bits and don't understand what makes a bit a bit. In english you don't normally have the confusion of what makes a snaffle a snaffle but when bits came here they mixed things up. Most snaffles have jointed mouth pieces so they started calling anything with a jointed mouth piece a snaffle. Now they are trying to get it into "snaffle mouth piece" on curbs.


The Imus bit is not a Tom Thumb at all, in any way shape or form. Because of the design there is no nutcracker action, there is a lot of presignal, a good amount of release, the three many problems of the TT. This bit is MUCH better then a TT and a normal Grazing bit for many horses. Personally I don't care for grazing bits all that much. The mouth piece on the Imus bit is solid but rotates on a joint on each side of the barrel.

The shape of the mouth piece is like the Mylers and it fits the same. Many horses look like the mouth piece of both is too wide but it isn't it just sticks out a bit on each side.
There is NO SNAFFLE action no matter what the website says. It is not going to action like a snaffle. It is a Pelham. It isn't the end all of bits. It works for some, not others. It has a strong tongue pressure. I was lucky enough to be able to get 2 dirt cheap($35 for both) by helping a guy figure out what they where. He had a box of them from an auction and didn't know what they where. Nice bits but not prefect bit for every horse and rider.

As for stainless steel, I disagree. Yes it doesn't rust but many horses do not like Sweet Iron or Copper and if you have a horse with reactions to some metals Stainless Steel is your best choice for most of them. I do like Sweet Iron and the copper inlay but Stainless does have it's place. Alumin(sp?) on the other hand has no real place in the mouth piece or shank....although I do have a cute little well made pony bit out of it. The shanks are very thick so they don't bend. Never used it, never will but it is the best Alum. bit I have ever seen.

And yes Curb bits are for well trained higher level horses, not young green or problem kids. No bit will contral a horse and a rider worrying about finding one is probably not taking the take to fix the real problem of contral.

You can direct rein a little in shanked bits, some handle it better then others. Looser shanks, loose mouth pieces, ect make it easier on the horse. BUT it is nearly impossible for a rider to train a horse from the start with a shanked bit without having problems. Some direct reining is fine and higher leverl riders(think dressage) can get away with it more but many of the avg. horses and riders just end up with problems unless they understand how that curb bit works when direct reining.


Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  4:25:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
I didn't get to read everything fully but there is a few points I want to make.

The best way I have found to discribe the different bits is this:

Snaffle- direct non leverage pressure. The headstall, reins and mouth piece all attach at the same level. Any style of mouth piece but there is no real gag action.

Curb bit- large group that many bits will fall into even if in other groups but NEVER will a snaffle be a curb bit. A bit that is designed with the headstall, mouth piece and reins attacted at 2 or more levels. The leverage is decided by many factors. Requires a curb strap to work correctly which causes curb pressure-the reason for the name. Can have any mouth piece style

Pelham-a Curb bit that is is designed with two sets of rein rings, one so called "snaffle rein ring" and a curb rein ring. designed for the use of two reins but many times used with one or with a connector strap.

Gag bits:
True Gag-mouth piece is set on a cheek ring, half ring or attacked directly to the headstall in a way that the mouth piece or ring slides on the cheek pieces. Normally there is a stop so that it doesn't keep going. It is not meant to gag the horse but a poor rider can make it do that. It puts loud lip and poll pressure. When used correctly it is a heads down bit but many times ends up making the horse pop the head up.
Gag action-normally a curb of some kind that allows the mouth piece to slide on a section of the shank. Many times seen on barrel bits and combo bits.

Combo bits-bits that are normally a mix of bit and noseband. Normally curb but not always and many have Gag Action.

That covers most of the bit groups. The trouble comes when the catalog and tack store places try to group bits and don't understand what makes a bit a bit. In english you don't normally have the confusion of what makes a snaffle a snaffle but when bits came here they mixed things up. Most snaffles have jointed mouth pieces so they started calling anything with a jointed mouth piece a snaffle. Now they are trying to get it into "snaffle mouth piece" on curbs.


The Imus bit is not a Tom Thumb at all, in any way shape or form. Because of the design there is no nutcracker action, there is a lot of presignal, a good amount of release, the three many problems of the TT. This bit is MUCH better then a TT and a normal Grazing bit for many horses. Personally I don't care for grazing bits all that much. The mouth piece on the Imus bit is solid but rotates on a joint on each side of the barrel.

The shape of the mouth piece is like the Mylers and it fits the same. Many horses look like the mouth piece of both is too wide but it isn't it just sticks out a bit on each side.
There is NO SNAFFLE action no matter what the website says. It is not going to action like a snaffle. It is a Pelham. It isn't the end all of bits. It works for some, not others. It has a strong tongue pressure. I was lucky enough to be able to get 2 dirt cheap($35 for both) by helping a guy figure out what they where. He had a box of them from an auction and didn't know what they where. Nice bits but not prefect bit for every horse and rider.

As for stainless steel, I disagree. Yes it doesn't rust but many horses do not like Sweet Iron or Copper and if you have a horse with reactions to some metals Stainless Steel is your best choice for most of them. I do like Sweet Iron and the copper inlay but Stainless does have it's place. Alumin(sp?) on the other hand has no real place in the mouth piece or shank....although I do have a cute little well made pony bit out of it. The shanks are very thick so they don't bend. Never used it, never will but it is the best Alum. bit I have ever seen.

And yes Curb bits are for well trained higher level horses, not young green or problem kids. No bit will contral a horse and a rider worrying about finding one is probably not taking the take to fix the real problem of contral.

You can direct rein a little in shanked bits, some handle it better then others. Looser shanks, loose mouth pieces, ect make it easier on the horse. BUT it is nearly impossible for a rider to train a horse from the start with a shanked bit without having problems. Some direct reining is fine and higher leverl riders(think dressage) can get away with it more but many of the avg. horses and riders just end up with problems unless they understand how that curb bit works when direct reining.


Go to Top of Page

OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2005 :  07:03:22 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by EZ2SPOT

OTW, this bit seems to be a variation of the Tom Thumb bit, and I would not use it for direct reining. No matter what the mouthpiece is, it is a curb bit!

What you seem to want is a guarantee that a certain bit will control your horse...and such a guarantee simply does not exist. All you can do is to train at home to the best of your ability, try to instill a "conditioned response" into the horse, and trust that it will work away from home.

For a horse that is really in a panic, I don't think there is a bit in the world strong enough to make it simply...STOP. As others have pointed out, in this case, your best bet is a one-rein stop or circling. Should add here that the cues for a one-rein stop and a tight circle, though they may seem the same, should actually be taught in a way that the horse can understand the difference.

I do understand your concerns about not having room, or being on a steep slope. There is not really a single, easy answer to your question.

EZ2SPOT



Well, I agree. She is trained to stop with verbal command (wherein we get a sloppy, iffy stop). And she responds to rein-back pressure, wherein we get a perfect stop. And I know there's no bit that will guarantee controlling my horse in any event. However, when she fright/flighted on the road, that's how I got her under control -- using both. I happened to have a Dr. Bristol on (first and only time I tried it, since thereafter I was told it's anything but a mild bit). I have no idea if I'd have been able to get her under control that quickly had I had another bit, say the French Link. So while I'm not looking for a bit to magically guarantee control of my horse, I am looking for one that's comfortable and friendly under normal circumstances with soft hands, but that has good "whoa" power if needed, as it was in that situation.

As for the "snaffle" word being misused, apparently it is. In reading this discussion, just out of curiosity I went to dictionary.com and here's what they have as a definition of "snaffle"... "A bit for a horse, consisting of two bars joined at the center, as by a joint." So at least there's the solace in knowing I'm not the only one who didn't know that a snaffle can also be a solid piece as long as it operates exclusive of leverage pressure.

So, then, to anyone who's worked with a lot of bits. The bit referenced in my last post... I agree, it's not a snaffle because there's a curb strap involved. That said, does it look like a nice, friendly bit generally, but one that would have good whoa power IF NEEDED? Alternatively, does Sharon's Imus Comfort bit look like it would fit both that criteria better, or same, or less?
Go to Top of Page

OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2005 :  07:03:22 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by EZ2SPOT

OTW, this bit seems to be a variation of the Tom Thumb bit, and I would not use it for direct reining. No matter what the mouthpiece is, it is a curb bit!

What you seem to want is a guarantee that a certain bit will control your horse...and such a guarantee simply does not exist. All you can do is to train at home to the best of your ability, try to instill a "conditioned response" into the horse, and trust that it will work away from home.

For a horse that is really in a panic, I don't think there is a bit in the world strong enough to make it simply...STOP. As others have pointed out, in this case, your best bet is a one-rein stop or circling. Should add here that the cues for a one-rein stop and a tight circle, though they may seem the same, should actually be taught in a way that the horse can understand the difference.

I do understand your concerns about not having room, or being on a steep slope. There is not really a single, easy answer to your question.

EZ2SPOT



Well, I agree. She is trained to stop with verbal command (wherein we get a sloppy, iffy stop). And she responds to rein-back pressure, wherein we get a perfect stop. And I know there's no bit that will guarantee controlling my horse in any event. However, when she fright/flighted on the road, that's how I got her under control -- using both. I happened to have a Dr. Bristol on (first and only time I tried it, since thereafter I was told it's anything but a mild bit). I have no idea if I'd have been able to get her under control that quickly had I had another bit, say the French Link. So while I'm not looking for a bit to magically guarantee control of my horse, I am looking for one that's comfortable and friendly under normal circumstances with soft hands, but that has good "whoa" power if needed, as it was in that situation.

As for the "snaffle" word being misused, apparently it is. In reading this discussion, just out of curiosity I went to dictionary.com and here's what they have as a definition of "snaffle"... "A bit for a horse, consisting of two bars joined at the center, as by a joint." So at least there's the solace in knowing I'm not the only one who didn't know that a snaffle can also be a solid piece as long as it operates exclusive of leverage pressure.

So, then, to anyone who's worked with a lot of bits. The bit referenced in my last post... I agree, it's not a snaffle because there's a curb strap involved. That said, does it look like a nice, friendly bit generally, but one that would have good whoa power IF NEEDED? Alternatively, does Sharon's Imus Comfort bit look like it would fit both that criteria better, or same, or less?
Go to Top of Page

dodib
Trainer

USA
783 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2005 :  09:23:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit dodib's Homepage Send dodib a Private Message
OK lots of info and I appreciate it all................. Now another question: What bit should we start with for showing? When moving a horse from a snaffle(which we use all the time outside of showing) what is the mildest, best curb bit to use???? I had been told Thom Thumb but I have also read up on it and it doesn't sound mild at all to me................. The new horse came with a curb bit--straight mouth piece(no break and no port)the shanks move(are not fixed) I cannot find this type of bit anywhere and it drives me crazy anyway because the shanks get all twisted etc..............I would like to try to find something similar because this is what she is used to. And would like to find something every mild for our other mare, she needs something for a little better control but I don't want something really harsh!!! When I look at curbs there are so many factors, shank length fixed or not , port size etc.............way too confusing!! HELP

Dorthy Brown
Go to Top of Page

dodib
Trainer

USA
783 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2005 :  09:23:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit dodib's Homepage Send dodib a Private Message
OK lots of info and I appreciate it all................. Now another question: What bit should we start with for showing? When moving a horse from a snaffle(which we use all the time outside of showing) what is the mildest, best curb bit to use???? I had been told Thom Thumb but I have also read up on it and it doesn't sound mild at all to me................. The new horse came with a curb bit--straight mouth piece(no break and no port)the shanks move(are not fixed) I cannot find this type of bit anywhere and it drives me crazy anyway because the shanks get all twisted etc..............I would like to try to find something similar because this is what she is used to. And would like to find something every mild for our other mare, she needs something for a little better control but I don't want something really harsh!!! When I look at curbs there are so many factors, shank length fixed or not , port size etc.............way too confusing!! HELP

Dorthy Brown
Go to Top of Page

OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2005 :  09:50:52 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Dodib, I sure didn't mean to distract the thread, just got carried away I guess. Apologies if my questions did that! ;-)
Go to Top of Page

OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2005 :  09:50:52 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Dodib, I sure didn't mean to distract the thread, just got carried away I guess. Apologies if my questions did that! ;-)
Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2005 :  12:56:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
OTW

I think you are worried too much that the bit is what stopped your horse in that case. Trust me if she would have been to the point that she didn't want to listen to the Dr. B it would not have stopped her. Well it is a louder Snaffle it doesn't pack as much power as some other bits. There are bits with more whoa but A) does your horse need it, B) do you need it and more importantly C) can the two of you use it correctly. Ten to one it was not the Dr. B that stopped the horse and it wouldn't have mattered if it was a Dr. B or a French link. I get the feeling that you are more scared of loosing contral then actually having a contral problem. No bit is going to give you whoa. They can make whoa clear but a horse can run right through any bit, even spade bits if they want too.

I can get the link that you posted to work. The Imus bit would have 'whoa' as in it makes it clearer to the horse that whoa is being asked for but no it is not going to give you whoa or contral. In fact you could easily loose contral with a bit that is to big for what you are doing or what the horse and rider can handle. It sounds odd but it's true. You end up loosing contral with a bigger bit if it isn't right.

I'm on a number of boards and deal with many cases each week so I can't remember all of the details of your case but if you are doing a lot of direct reining, no a shanked bit is not going to work. If the horse has never been in a shanked bit before you will have to do a lot transition work to get her into it and going well.

Any bit fits your two criteria because both things are not contral by the bit but by your hands and the training....well just about any! lol
Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2005 :  12:56:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
OTW

I think you are worried too much that the bit is what stopped your horse in that case. Trust me if she would have been to the point that she didn't want to listen to the Dr. B it would not have stopped her. Well it is a louder Snaffle it doesn't pack as much power as some other bits. There are bits with more whoa but A) does your horse need it, B) do you need it and more importantly C) can the two of you use it correctly. Ten to one it was not the Dr. B that stopped the horse and it wouldn't have mattered if it was a Dr. B or a French link. I get the feeling that you are more scared of loosing contral then actually having a contral problem. No bit is going to give you whoa. They can make whoa clear but a horse can run right through any bit, even spade bits if they want too.

I can get the link that you posted to work. The Imus bit would have 'whoa' as in it makes it clearer to the horse that whoa is being asked for but no it is not going to give you whoa or contral. In fact you could easily loose contral with a bit that is to big for what you are doing or what the horse and rider can handle. It sounds odd but it's true. You end up loosing contral with a bigger bit if it isn't right.

I'm on a number of boards and deal with many cases each week so I can't remember all of the details of your case but if you are doing a lot of direct reining, no a shanked bit is not going to work. If the horse has never been in a shanked bit before you will have to do a lot transition work to get her into it and going well.

Any bit fits your two criteria because both things are not contral by the bit but by your hands and the training....well just about any! lol
Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2005 :  1:50:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
dodib

It's not that simple, without seeing the horse and rider it's nearly impossible to say because there are so many factors.

For transtion bits looseness tends to be better. Loose shanks, shorter curved shanks, a good release and presignal. But when it comes to transtion bits you should not limit yourself to what is show legal. The butterfly bit(depending on the mouth piece) would work on a transtition bit even though it is not show legal. Normally the bit you show in is not the first curb bit that is used on the horse. There is an art to chosing bits and picking out the right one can make or break a class. You can tweek the horse's performance with the bit so a lot of the top riders don't school daily in their show bits.

A Straight mouth piece is a very loud tongue bit. If she came with a curb bit then you probably don't need to worry about getting her transitioned into one so it's just a matter of finding a bit she likes and you can use correctly and is show legal if you want to show with it.

For the other mare, the contral isn't going to come from the bit. What do you need more contral with for her? Is she not stopping? Turning? Staying in the right gait?

A good place to start might be picking up a copy of "A Bit of Information". Western Horseman Magazine sells it. They have a number to call in the magazine and should have it listed on their website. It costs around $5 but it more then worth it. It explains about balance, how to measure the shanks, how to pick bits, etc. Another good one is 'Choosing the right bit for your horse' by Jessica jahiel. Really anything by her is good but this booklet is good for starting out on learning how to pick bits. Not as indepth as the first for curb bits but still good. It's around $4 and can be found in the Jeffers catalog or direct from www.storey.com
Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/28/2005 :  1:50:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
dodib

It's not that simple, without seeing the horse and rider it's nearly impossible to say because there are so many factors.

For transtion bits looseness tends to be better. Loose shanks, shorter curved shanks, a good release and presignal. But when it comes to transtion bits you should not limit yourself to what is show legal. The butterfly bit(depending on the mouth piece) would work on a transtition bit even though it is not show legal. Normally the bit you show in is not the first curb bit that is used on the horse. There is an art to chosing bits and picking out the right one can make or break a class. You can tweek the horse's performance with the bit so a lot of the top riders don't school daily in their show bits.

A Straight mouth piece is a very loud tongue bit. If she came with a curb bit then you probably don't need to worry about getting her transitioned into one so it's just a matter of finding a bit she likes and you can use correctly and is show legal if you want to show with it.

For the other mare, the contral isn't going to come from the bit. What do you need more contral with for her? Is she not stopping? Turning? Staying in the right gait?

A good place to start might be picking up a copy of "A Bit of Information". Western Horseman Magazine sells it. They have a number to call in the magazine and should have it listed on their website. It costs around $5 but it more then worth it. It explains about balance, how to measure the shanks, how to pick bits, etc. Another good one is 'Choosing the right bit for your horse' by Jessica jahiel. Really anything by her is good but this booklet is good for starting out on learning how to pick bits. Not as indepth as the first for curb bits but still good. It's around $4 and can be found in the Jeffers catalog or direct from www.storey.com
Go to Top of Page

OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2005 :  09:03:27 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Stormie

OTW

I think you are worried too much that the bit is what stopped your horse in that case. Trust me if she would have been to the point that she didn't want to listen to the Dr. B it would not have stopped her. Well it is a louder Snaffle it doesn't pack as much power as some other bits. There are bits with more whoa but A) does your horse need it, B) do you need it and more importantly C) can the two of you use it correctly. Ten to one it was not the Dr. B that stopped the horse and it wouldn't have mattered if it was a Dr. B or a French link. I get the feeling that you are more scared of loosing contral then actually having a contral problem. No bit is going to give you whoa. They can make whoa clear but a horse can run right through any bit, even spade bits if they want too.

I can get the link that you posted to work. The Imus bit would have 'whoa' as in it makes it clearer to the horse that whoa is being asked for but no it is not going to give you whoa or contral. In fact you could easily loose contral with a bit that is to big for what you are doing or what the horse and rider can handle. It sounds odd but it's true. You end up loosing contral with a bigger bit if it isn't right.

I'm on a number of boards and deal with many cases each week so I can't remember all of the details of your case but if you are doing a lot of direct reining, no a shanked bit is not going to work. If the horse has never been in a shanked bit before you will have to do a lot transition work to get her into it and going well.

Any bit fits your two criteria because both things are not contral by the bit but by your hands and the training....well just about any! lol



Stormie, you should be charging fees, you're taking on both of us, LOL.

As to me, you're probably right. I'm worrying more about keeping her under control than has been proven I can. She's taken off suddenly with me 4 times (three with no scare factor at all, I think just to see if she could get away with getting home faster). I got her stopped those times with a heck of a lot softer bit than the Dr. Bristol, so it's quite possible that WITH the scare factor the 4th time I could have also.

I'm also going to look into the bit books and maybe just keep it simple and stay with the French Link until and unless I find something about it isn't working.

One question: I've been using the French Link with neck reining as well as the few times I've tried direct reining. (The latter is just to see if I can get her into a sidepass.) Any problem with that one simple bit for both neck reining and direct reining? Seems to be working, but is there anything about it that is NOT compatible with neck reining? I know it's used with direct reining.
Go to Top of Page

OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2005 :  09:03:27 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Stormie

OTW

I think you are worried too much that the bit is what stopped your horse in that case. Trust me if she would have been to the point that she didn't want to listen to the Dr. B it would not have stopped her. Well it is a louder Snaffle it doesn't pack as much power as some other bits. There are bits with more whoa but A) does your horse need it, B) do you need it and more importantly C) can the two of you use it correctly. Ten to one it was not the Dr. B that stopped the horse and it wouldn't have mattered if it was a Dr. B or a French link. I get the feeling that you are more scared of loosing contral then actually having a contral problem. No bit is going to give you whoa. They can make whoa clear but a horse can run right through any bit, even spade bits if they want too.

I can get the link that you posted to work. The Imus bit would have 'whoa' as in it makes it clearer to the horse that whoa is being asked for but no it is not going to give you whoa or contral. In fact you could easily loose contral with a bit that is to big for what you are doing or what the horse and rider can handle. It sounds odd but it's true. You end up loosing contral with a bigger bit if it isn't right.

I'm on a number of boards and deal with many cases each week so I can't remember all of the details of your case but if you are doing a lot of direct reining, no a shanked bit is not going to work. If the horse has never been in a shanked bit before you will have to do a lot transition work to get her into it and going well.

Any bit fits your two criteria because both things are not contral by the bit but by your hands and the training....well just about any! lol



Stormie, you should be charging fees, you're taking on both of us, LOL.

As to me, you're probably right. I'm worrying more about keeping her under control than has been proven I can. She's taken off suddenly with me 4 times (three with no scare factor at all, I think just to see if she could get away with getting home faster). I got her stopped those times with a heck of a lot softer bit than the Dr. Bristol, so it's quite possible that WITH the scare factor the 4th time I could have also.

I'm also going to look into the bit books and maybe just keep it simple and stay with the French Link until and unless I find something about it isn't working.

One question: I've been using the French Link with neck reining as well as the few times I've tried direct reining. (The latter is just to see if I can get her into a sidepass.) Any problem with that one simple bit for both neck reining and direct reining? Seems to be working, but is there anything about it that is NOT compatible with neck reining? I know it's used with direct reining.
Go to Top of Page

Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2005 :  10:39:48 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
OTW; I know I'm not Stormie but if a horse is trained to neck rein and responds well to it, the horse ought to neck rein no matter what the bit. A snaffle is designed to be ridden with direct pressure, but if the horse has had the right training, you can ride with one hand and neck rein in combination with your seat & leg cues when using it.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
Go to Top of Page

Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2005 :  10:39:48 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
OTW; I know I'm not Stormie but if a horse is trained to neck rein and responds well to it, the horse ought to neck rein no matter what the bit. A snaffle is designed to be ridden with direct pressure, but if the horse has had the right training, you can ride with one hand and neck rein in combination with your seat & leg cues when using it.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2005 :  6:24:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Yep, a horse that is well trained should neck rein no matter the bit or lack of bit. BUT you have to make sure you have a loose rein when you neck rein. If a horse can't go on a loose rein they aren't ready to neck rein yet. No matter the bit if you neck rein with too tight of a rein it causes the bit to do odd things.

Personally I prefer to teach the horse to neck rein in a snaffle first just because I start neck reining way before the horse is ready for a curb bit. I use it for cooling it out as soon as the first week or two of riding.
Go to Top of Page

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2005 :  6:24:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Yep, a horse that is well trained should neck rein no matter the bit or lack of bit. BUT you have to make sure you have a loose rein when you neck rein. If a horse can't go on a loose rein they aren't ready to neck rein yet. No matter the bit if you neck rein with too tight of a rein it causes the bit to do odd things.

Personally I prefer to teach the horse to neck rein in a snaffle first just because I start neck reining way before the horse is ready for a curb bit. I use it for cooling it out as soon as the first week or two of riding.
Go to Top of Page

OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2005 :  06:47:48 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Well, she seems to neck rein on anything -- she came with a fat rubber jointed bit and then I switched her to the French Link which is thinner and I'm sure must be more comfortable. However, with either, she sometimes needs some maintained rein pressure, especially on the way home when she'd love to speed it up.

As for leg/seat aids, what are those for slowing or stopping?
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 5 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  Topic Locked
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Daily Equine Forum © 2000-2002 Snitz Communications Go To Top Of Page
This page was generated in 0.19 seconds. Snitz Forums 2000