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sharon
Advanced Rider



USA
232 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  1:22:57 PM  Show Profile Send sharon a Private Message
OnTheWay,
The bit is not jointed but each side works independently. My opinion regarding the whoa factor is that Whoa should be established early and from the ground. My horse needs no rein pressure to stop. A verbal Whoa is good enough. She does half halt well with this bit. Now as for the fear and flee factor, the one rein stop is usually the best choice. I really don't believe that the use of a painful bit is good horse training. Like saying, "If you don't stop, I'm gonna hurt you." It might be effective for a while but sooner or later the horse will grow weary of it and a whole new set of problems is likely to develope. ie: head tossing, chomping, nosing out, poor head carriage, and so on.

"You never know til you know for sure and even then its hard to tell."
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  3:25:44 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
OTW; I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because the mouthpiece on a bit is not a "broken" (2 or 3 pieces) mouthpiece that it isn't a snaffle?

If this is the case, a snaffle bit can have any kind of mouthpiece including all one piece, or have a port, or almost any kind of mouthpiece that you can find on a curb bit. If there is no leverage action of any kind involved with the bit and it does not require a curb strap or curb chain to activate it, then the bit works with the same action as a snaffle... direct pressure on the mouth and nothing else.

If I did read your post wrong, you have my most profound apology.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  3:25:44 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
OTW; I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because the mouthpiece on a bit is not a "broken" (2 or 3 pieces) mouthpiece that it isn't a snaffle?

If this is the case, a snaffle bit can have any kind of mouthpiece including all one piece, or have a port, or almost any kind of mouthpiece that you can find on a curb bit. If there is no leverage action of any kind involved with the bit and it does not require a curb strap or curb chain to activate it, then the bit works with the same action as a snaffle... direct pressure on the mouth and nothing else.

If I did read your post wrong, you have my most profound apology.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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sharon
Advanced Rider



USA
232 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  8:08:49 PM  Show Profile Send sharon a Private Message
quote:
OTW; I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because the mouthpiece on a bit is not a "broken" (2 or 3 pieces) mouthpiece that it isn't a snaffle?

. . .

If I did read your post wrong, you have my most profound apology.


And the room goes completely quiet as OTW bites her tongue and exits.
With a little graceful editing, this would have been some real good information for someone not familiar with all the mechanics of different horse bits. Why would you post with an apology pending? Come on, now.

"You never know til you know for sure and even then its hard to tell."
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sharon
Advanced Rider



USA
232 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  8:08:49 PM  Show Profile Send sharon a Private Message
quote:
OTW; I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because the mouthpiece on a bit is not a "broken" (2 or 3 pieces) mouthpiece that it isn't a snaffle?

. . .

If I did read your post wrong, you have my most profound apology.


And the room goes completely quiet as OTW bites her tongue and exits.
With a little graceful editing, this would have been some real good information for someone not familiar with all the mechanics of different horse bits. Why would you post with an apology pending? Come on, now.

"You never know til you know for sure and even then its hard to tell."
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Frost
Beginning Rider



USA
115 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  10:17:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frost's Homepage Send Frost a Private Message
I think Redhawk and Stormie are VERY knowledgable about bits. I'm not sure about butterfly bits, but butterfly chops are very nice

Vern

Former Nebraskan...
"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket."

'May the HORSE be with you!' Gentle as possible, yet firm as necessary.
"I like to ride bareback, and sometimes I even wear a shirt!"
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Frost
Beginning Rider



USA
115 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  10:17:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frost's Homepage Send Frost a Private Message
I think Redhawk and Stormie are VERY knowledgable about bits. I'm not sure about butterfly bits, but butterfly chops are very nice

Vern

Former Nebraskan...
"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket."

'May the HORSE be with you!' Gentle as possible, yet firm as necessary.
"I like to ride bareback, and sometimes I even wear a shirt!"
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2005 :  07:00:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
LOL, Frost, I have no idea what a butterfly bit is, either!

But the Gaits of Gold bit looks interesting, and if I am not totally destitute after Christmas, I may buy one.

EZ2SPOT
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2005 :  07:00:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
LOL, Frost, I have no idea what a butterfly bit is, either!

But the Gaits of Gold bit looks interesting, and if I am not totally destitute after Christmas, I may buy one.

EZ2SPOT
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2005 :  07:39:37 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Red Hawk

OTW; I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because the mouthpiece on a bit is not a "broken" (2 or 3 pieces) mouthpiece that it isn't a snaffle?

If this is the case, a snaffle bit can have any kind of mouthpiece including all one piece, or have a port, or almost any kind of mouthpiece that you can find on a curb bit. If there is no leverage action of any kind involved with the bit and it does not require a curb strap or curb chain to activate it, then the bit works with the same action as a snaffle... direct pressure on the mouth and nothing else.

If I did read your post wrong, you have my most profound apology.



Nope, you read my post right. I thought a snaffle bit was always a jointed bit, hinged in the center so that when pressure is applied, you have a "V" factor that pulls back on the sides of the mouth. And I thought a French bit qualified as a snaffle, except it has a center piece that lessens the "V" factor.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, then the French bit qualifies as a snaffle, not because of the jointed design, but because it only applies stretching pressure to the sides of the mouth, nothing else. But the Dr. Bristol would not be a snaffle because in addition to applying pressure to that same area, it also applies pressure to the roof of the mouth?

Also, if a bit that doesn't have a hinge may still be a snaffle, then why on tack supply websites, under "bits" is there often a category that says "snaffles" and ALL of the bits shown are those with hinges? French bits appear in that category. I believe Dr. Bristol bits do also. Both are hinged.

And likewise, so I can get this straight, what are some bits that are not jointed but are still "snaffles"?


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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2005 :  07:39:37 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Red Hawk

OTW; I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because the mouthpiece on a bit is not a "broken" (2 or 3 pieces) mouthpiece that it isn't a snaffle?

If this is the case, a snaffle bit can have any kind of mouthpiece including all one piece, or have a port, or almost any kind of mouthpiece that you can find on a curb bit. If there is no leverage action of any kind involved with the bit and it does not require a curb strap or curb chain to activate it, then the bit works with the same action as a snaffle... direct pressure on the mouth and nothing else.

If I did read your post wrong, you have my most profound apology.



Nope, you read my post right. I thought a snaffle bit was always a jointed bit, hinged in the center so that when pressure is applied, you have a "V" factor that pulls back on the sides of the mouth. And I thought a French bit qualified as a snaffle, except it has a center piece that lessens the "V" factor.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, then the French bit qualifies as a snaffle, not because of the jointed design, but because it only applies stretching pressure to the sides of the mouth, nothing else. But the Dr. Bristol would not be a snaffle because in addition to applying pressure to that same area, it also applies pressure to the roof of the mouth?

Also, if a bit that doesn't have a hinge may still be a snaffle, then why on tack supply websites, under "bits" is there often a category that says "snaffles" and ALL of the bits shown are those with hinges? French bits appear in that category. I believe Dr. Bristol bits do also. Both are hinged.

And likewise, so I can get this straight, what are some bits that are not jointed but are still "snaffles"?


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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2005 :  8:32:47 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by OnTheWay

quote:
Originally posted by Red Hawk

OTW; I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because the mouthpiece on a bit is not a "broken" (2 or 3 pieces) mouthpiece that it isn't a snaffle?

If this is the case, a snaffle bit can have any kind of mouthpiece including all one piece, or have a port, or almost any kind of mouthpiece that you can find on a curb bit. If there is no leverage action of any kind involved with the bit and it does not require a curb strap or curb chain to activate it, then the bit works with the same action as a snaffle... direct pressure on the mouth and nothing else.

If I did read your post wrong, you have my most profound apology.



Nope, you read my post right. I thought a snaffle bit was always a jointed bit, hinged in the center so that when pressure is applied, you have a "V" factor that pulls back on the sides of the mouth. And I thought a French bit qualified as a snaffle, except it has a center piece that lessens the "V" factor.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, then the French bit qualifies as a snaffle, not because of the jointed design, but because it only applies stretching pressure to the sides of the mouth, nothing else. But the Dr. Bristol would not be a snaffle because in addition to applying pressure to that same area, it also applies pressure to the roof of the mouth?

Also, if a bit that doesn't have a hinge may still be a snaffle, then why on tack supply websites, under "bits" is there often a category that says "snaffles" and ALL of the bits shown are those with hinges? French bits appear in that category. I believe Dr. Bristol bits do also. Both are hinged.

And likewise, so I can get this straight, what are some bits that are not jointed but are still "snaffles"?






Oh, man... I was trying to be very careful, and it looks like I stuck my foot in my mouth, and I am chewing it well.

There are a lot of stores out there that sell bits that think the same way. In other words, they think that if the bit has a broken mouthpiece, it is a snaffle. The TSC stores are really good at this with their line of "Western Heritage" bits. So, let's see if I can straighten things out for you.

The basic snaffle and curbs bits are not defined by their mouthpieces but by the action of the bit when pressure is applied to the reins.

So, let's start with the snaffle, because it is a very basic bit. A snaffle bit has a mouthpiece and usually a ring of any number of shapes attached to either end of this mouthpiece. The mouthpiece, itself can be anything and not limited to a 2 piece or 3 piece mouthpiece. What makes it a snaffle is the rings that usually designate what it is called... such as O-ring, D-ring, or egg-butt, for example. When rein pressure is applied to this type of bit, the only pressure the horse feels is in his mouth and the corners of his mouth. This is called direct pressure. A snaffle bit is made to normally be ridden with 2 hands by pulling gently on the left rein to go left and the right rein to go right. It does not need to have any kind of "curb" strap that fits in the chin groove to activate it.

A curb bit can also have any kind of mouthpiece including 2 & 3 piece mouthpieces. What defines it as a curb bit is that it has shanks of some kind attached to either end of the mouthpiece. The shanks will usually run slightly above the mouthpiece and several inches below the mouthpiece. The bridle will attach to rings above the mouthpieces and the reins attach to the rings at the bottom of the shanks. The 2 pics of bits I posted in another post are both curb bits and illustrate what I'm trying to describe. Curb bits are useless without the use of a curb strap. When you apply rein pressure to a curb bit, the shanks move back, the curb strap raises up snug into the horse's chin groove, and the top of the bridle is drawn down onto the top of the horse's head all at the same time (In comparison, a snaffle cannot and never will create this kind of pressure.). This action is all caused by leverage that happens when rein pressure is applied. This is why we say a curb bit works on leverage and a snaffle bit does not. Curb bits were made to be ridden with one hand and indirect rein pressure or what is more commonly known as neck reining.

Whew!! I hope I've explained it correctly and without upsetting anyone. But this is the best explanation I can give of describing the snaffle & the curb and how they are different from one another.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 11/26/2005 :  8:32:47 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by OnTheWay

quote:
Originally posted by Red Hawk

OTW; I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but are you saying that because the mouthpiece on a bit is not a "broken" (2 or 3 pieces) mouthpiece that it isn't a snaffle?

If this is the case, a snaffle bit can have any kind of mouthpiece including all one piece, or have a port, or almost any kind of mouthpiece that you can find on a curb bit. If there is no leverage action of any kind involved with the bit and it does not require a curb strap or curb chain to activate it, then the bit works with the same action as a snaffle... direct pressure on the mouth and nothing else.

If I did read your post wrong, you have my most profound apology.



Nope, you read my post right. I thought a snaffle bit was always a jointed bit, hinged in the center so that when pressure is applied, you have a "V" factor that pulls back on the sides of the mouth. And I thought a French bit qualified as a snaffle, except it has a center piece that lessens the "V" factor.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, then the French bit qualifies as a snaffle, not because of the jointed design, but because it only applies stretching pressure to the sides of the mouth, nothing else. But the Dr. Bristol would not be a snaffle because in addition to applying pressure to that same area, it also applies pressure to the roof of the mouth?

Also, if a bit that doesn't have a hinge may still be a snaffle, then why on tack supply websites, under "bits" is there often a category that says "snaffles" and ALL of the bits shown are those with hinges? French bits appear in that category. I believe Dr. Bristol bits do also. Both are hinged.

And likewise, so I can get this straight, what are some bits that are not jointed but are still "snaffles"?






Oh, man... I was trying to be very careful, and it looks like I stuck my foot in my mouth, and I am chewing it well.

There are a lot of stores out there that sell bits that think the same way. In other words, they think that if the bit has a broken mouthpiece, it is a snaffle. The TSC stores are really good at this with their line of "Western Heritage" bits. So, let's see if I can straighten things out for you.

The basic snaffle and curbs bits are not defined by their mouthpieces but by the action of the bit when pressure is applied to the reins.

So, let's start with the snaffle, because it is a very basic bit. A snaffle bit has a mouthpiece and usually a ring of any number of shapes attached to either end of this mouthpiece. The mouthpiece, itself can be anything and not limited to a 2 piece or 3 piece mouthpiece. What makes it a snaffle is the rings that usually designate what it is called... such as O-ring, D-ring, or egg-butt, for example. When rein pressure is applied to this type of bit, the only pressure the horse feels is in his mouth and the corners of his mouth. This is called direct pressure. A snaffle bit is made to normally be ridden with 2 hands by pulling gently on the left rein to go left and the right rein to go right. It does not need to have any kind of "curb" strap that fits in the chin groove to activate it.

A curb bit can also have any kind of mouthpiece including 2 & 3 piece mouthpieces. What defines it as a curb bit is that it has shanks of some kind attached to either end of the mouthpiece. The shanks will usually run slightly above the mouthpiece and several inches below the mouthpiece. The bridle will attach to rings above the mouthpieces and the reins attach to the rings at the bottom of the shanks. The 2 pics of bits I posted in another post are both curb bits and illustrate what I'm trying to describe. Curb bits are useless without the use of a curb strap. When you apply rein pressure to a curb bit, the shanks move back, the curb strap raises up snug into the horse's chin groove, and the top of the bridle is drawn down onto the top of the horse's head all at the same time (In comparison, a snaffle cannot and never will create this kind of pressure.). This action is all caused by leverage that happens when rein pressure is applied. This is why we say a curb bit works on leverage and a snaffle bit does not. Curb bits were made to be ridden with one hand and indirect rein pressure or what is more commonly known as neck reining.

Whew!! I hope I've explained it correctly and without upsetting anyone. But this is the best explanation I can give of describing the snaffle & the curb and how they are different from one another.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  07:27:10 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:


Oh, man... I was trying to be very careful, and it looks like I stuck my foot in my mouth, and I am chewing it well.

There are a lot of stores out there that sell bits that think the same way. In other words, they think that if the bit has a broken mouthpiece, it is a snaffle. The TSC stores are really good at this with their line of "Western Heritage" bits. So, let's see if I can straighten things out for you.

The basic snaffle and curbs bits are not defined by their mouthpieces but by the action of the bit when pressure is applied to the reins.

So, let's start with the snaffle, because it is a very basic bit. A snaffle bit has a mouthpiece and usually a ring of any number of shapes attached to either end of this mouthpiece. The mouthpiece, itself can be anything and not limited to a 2 piece or 3 piece mouthpiece. What makes it a snaffle is the rings that usually designate what it is called... such as O-ring, D-ring, or egg-butt, for example. When rein pressure is applied to this type of bit, the only pressure the horse feels is in his mouth and the corners of his mouth. This is called direct pressure. A snaffle bit is made to normally be ridden with 2 hands by pulling gently on the left rein to go left and the right rein to go right. It does not need to have any kind of "curb" strap that fits in the chin groove to activate it.

A curb bit can also have any kind of mouthpiece including 2 & 3 piece mouthpieces. What defines it as a curb bit is that it has shanks of some kind attached to either end of the mouthpiece. The shanks will usually run slightly above the mouthpiece and several inches below the mouthpiece. The bridle will attach to rings above the mouthpieces and the reins attach to the rings at the bottom of the shanks. The 2 pics of bits I posted in another post are both curb bits and illustrate what I'm trying to describe. Curb bits are useless without the use of a curb strap. When you apply rein pressure to a curb bit, the shanks move back, the curb strap raises up snug into the horse's chin groove, and the top of the bridle is drawn down onto the top of the horse's head all at the same time (In comparison, a snaffle cannot and never will create this kind of pressure.). This action is all caused by leverage that happens when rein pressure is applied. This is why we say a curb bit works on leverage and a snaffle bit does not. Curb bits were made to be ridden with one hand and indirect rein pressure or what is more commonly known as neck reining.

Whew!! I hope I've explained it correctly and without upsetting anyone. But this is the best explanation I can give of describing the snaffle & the curb and how they are different from one another.



I have no reason to assume your explanation isn't correct, sure sounds like it. In any event, it was definitely easy to understand, thank you!!! And I wasn't offended. But did appreciate the concern that I may have been.

Okay, I'm using a snaffle (no curb strap) --the French Link. I've been using it with indirect rein for riding around the neighborhood. Cloud responds just fine to that, neck-reining.

Now my question is, if she gets into a freak-out (something scares her and she wants to turn and bolt) is there anything about that bit that would NOT work for "whoa"? It would be fine, of course, if every time I wanted her to stop I could just say "Whoa," but if she's freaked and turns to run, we're dealing with left brain (or so what it's been called) --meaning she's in fright/flight.

I would like to use the least obnoxious bit on her I can, because she tends to do really well with it under MOST circumstances. ON the other hand, I also bought (but haven't yet tried) this bit. And I'm still not sure I understand how severe it is. I have not tried any bit with a shank with her.

So my question is, assuming I'm not yanking on it and abusing it, would this be a better one for just normal riding (light hands) BUT would also have the extra whoa power if she did get into a fright/flight mode?

statelinetack.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441773499&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302029221&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302024175&bmUID=1133093559613

Now, note there, which is an example of the source of my confusion, they refer to this as a snaffle bit. Also a training bit. ]

Now to add another twist. I tried an English All Purpose saddle on her, and because of wet ground, only rode her out about 200 ft. and back a couple of times. I tried a direct rein in configuration to get a sidepass. I got it. I also tried turning her with just leg pressure (opposite side). Like clockwork! What did not work with the western saddle (lots of thick leather under leg) worked amazingly with the English saddle (much more sensitivity ability with less "stuff" between me and her body). So I bought it.

I would like to try VERY elementary, beginning, bare bones dressage with her. It requires direct reining, not neck reining.

Unless I'm going to be changing bit constantly, would the above bit ALSO work for that? In other words, can I do direct reining with it?

Maybe just the French Link would have the whoa power, which would settle it. Maybe the above bit would work with direct reining AND have the whoa power in emergencies. That would settle it.

As for post farther up in this thread that suggested a one-rein stop in fright/flight cases, that would be fine if we were in a field, but I can't picture doing that on the side of the road with cars going by on one side and either trees or driveways/yards on the other side, plus in some places streams down a deep gully. It's gotta be a straight line "whoa" which means stopping power with my hands.
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  07:27:10 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
quote:


Oh, man... I was trying to be very careful, and it looks like I stuck my foot in my mouth, and I am chewing it well.

There are a lot of stores out there that sell bits that think the same way. In other words, they think that if the bit has a broken mouthpiece, it is a snaffle. The TSC stores are really good at this with their line of "Western Heritage" bits. So, let's see if I can straighten things out for you.

The basic snaffle and curbs bits are not defined by their mouthpieces but by the action of the bit when pressure is applied to the reins.

So, let's start with the snaffle, because it is a very basic bit. A snaffle bit has a mouthpiece and usually a ring of any number of shapes attached to either end of this mouthpiece. The mouthpiece, itself can be anything and not limited to a 2 piece or 3 piece mouthpiece. What makes it a snaffle is the rings that usually designate what it is called... such as O-ring, D-ring, or egg-butt, for example. When rein pressure is applied to this type of bit, the only pressure the horse feels is in his mouth and the corners of his mouth. This is called direct pressure. A snaffle bit is made to normally be ridden with 2 hands by pulling gently on the left rein to go left and the right rein to go right. It does not need to have any kind of "curb" strap that fits in the chin groove to activate it.

A curb bit can also have any kind of mouthpiece including 2 & 3 piece mouthpieces. What defines it as a curb bit is that it has shanks of some kind attached to either end of the mouthpiece. The shanks will usually run slightly above the mouthpiece and several inches below the mouthpiece. The bridle will attach to rings above the mouthpieces and the reins attach to the rings at the bottom of the shanks. The 2 pics of bits I posted in another post are both curb bits and illustrate what I'm trying to describe. Curb bits are useless without the use of a curb strap. When you apply rein pressure to a curb bit, the shanks move back, the curb strap raises up snug into the horse's chin groove, and the top of the bridle is drawn down onto the top of the horse's head all at the same time (In comparison, a snaffle cannot and never will create this kind of pressure.). This action is all caused by leverage that happens when rein pressure is applied. This is why we say a curb bit works on leverage and a snaffle bit does not. Curb bits were made to be ridden with one hand and indirect rein pressure or what is more commonly known as neck reining.

Whew!! I hope I've explained it correctly and without upsetting anyone. But this is the best explanation I can give of describing the snaffle & the curb and how they are different from one another.



I have no reason to assume your explanation isn't correct, sure sounds like it. In any event, it was definitely easy to understand, thank you!!! And I wasn't offended. But did appreciate the concern that I may have been.

Okay, I'm using a snaffle (no curb strap) --the French Link. I've been using it with indirect rein for riding around the neighborhood. Cloud responds just fine to that, neck-reining.

Now my question is, if she gets into a freak-out (something scares her and she wants to turn and bolt) is there anything about that bit that would NOT work for "whoa"? It would be fine, of course, if every time I wanted her to stop I could just say "Whoa," but if she's freaked and turns to run, we're dealing with left brain (or so what it's been called) --meaning she's in fright/flight.

I would like to use the least obnoxious bit on her I can, because she tends to do really well with it under MOST circumstances. ON the other hand, I also bought (but haven't yet tried) this bit. And I'm still not sure I understand how severe it is. I have not tried any bit with a shank with her.

So my question is, assuming I'm not yanking on it and abusing it, would this be a better one for just normal riding (light hands) BUT would also have the extra whoa power if she did get into a fright/flight mode?

statelinetack.com/global/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524441773499&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302029221&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=2534374302024175&bmUID=1133093559613

Now, note there, which is an example of the source of my confusion, they refer to this as a snaffle bit. Also a training bit. ]

Now to add another twist. I tried an English All Purpose saddle on her, and because of wet ground, only rode her out about 200 ft. and back a couple of times. I tried a direct rein in configuration to get a sidepass. I got it. I also tried turning her with just leg pressure (opposite side). Like clockwork! What did not work with the western saddle (lots of thick leather under leg) worked amazingly with the English saddle (much more sensitivity ability with less "stuff" between me and her body). So I bought it.

I would like to try VERY elementary, beginning, bare bones dressage with her. It requires direct reining, not neck reining.

Unless I'm going to be changing bit constantly, would the above bit ALSO work for that? In other words, can I do direct reining with it?

Maybe just the French Link would have the whoa power, which would settle it. Maybe the above bit would work with direct reining AND have the whoa power in emergencies. That would settle it.

As for post farther up in this thread that suggested a one-rein stop in fright/flight cases, that would be fine if we were in a field, but I can't picture doing that on the side of the road with cars going by on one side and either trees or driveways/yards on the other side, plus in some places streams down a deep gully. It's gotta be a straight line "whoa" which means stopping power with my hands.
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  09:49:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
OTW, this bit seems to be a variation of the Tom Thumb bit, and I would not use it for direct reining. No matter what the mouthpiece is, it is a curb bit!

What you seem to want is a guarantee that a certain bit will control your horse...and such a guarantee simply does not exist. All you can do is to train at home to the best of your ability, try to instill a "conditioned response" into the horse, and trust that it will work away from home.

For a horse that is really in a panic, I don't think there is a bit in the world strong enough to make it simply...STOP. As others have pointed out, in this case, your best bet is a one-rein stop or circling. Should add here that the cues for a one-rein stop and a tight circle, though they may seem the same, should actually be taught in a way that the horse can understand the difference.

I do understand your concerns about not having room, or being on a steep slope. There is not really a single, easy answer to your question.

EZ2SPOT
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3785 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  09:49:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
OTW, this bit seems to be a variation of the Tom Thumb bit, and I would not use it for direct reining. No matter what the mouthpiece is, it is a curb bit!

What you seem to want is a guarantee that a certain bit will control your horse...and such a guarantee simply does not exist. All you can do is to train at home to the best of your ability, try to instill a "conditioned response" into the horse, and trust that it will work away from home.

For a horse that is really in a panic, I don't think there is a bit in the world strong enough to make it simply...STOP. As others have pointed out, in this case, your best bet is a one-rein stop or circling. Should add here that the cues for a one-rein stop and a tight circle, though they may seem the same, should actually be taught in a way that the horse can understand the difference.

I do understand your concerns about not having room, or being on a steep slope. There is not really a single, easy answer to your question.

EZ2SPOT
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sharon
Advanced Rider



USA
232 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  09:56:51 AM  Show Profile Send sharon a Private Message
Please do more research on the Gaits of Gold bit. I know all of you will think I am nuts but I am direct reining from the shanks and using the curb. Works wonderful. Please go to the site and ask Brenda Imus. She is very willing to answer all your questions. The bit is expensive so ask alot of questions. I am not trying to be a sales person for her but I think she has got something great and by all means let her know that your horse is not a gaited breed.

"You never know til you know for sure and even then its hard to tell."
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sharon
Advanced Rider



USA
232 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  09:56:51 AM  Show Profile Send sharon a Private Message
Please do more research on the Gaits of Gold bit. I know all of you will think I am nuts but I am direct reining from the shanks and using the curb. Works wonderful. Please go to the site and ask Brenda Imus. She is very willing to answer all your questions. The bit is expensive so ask alot of questions. I am not trying to be a sales person for her but I think she has got something great and by all means let her know that your horse is not a gaited breed.

"You never know til you know for sure and even then its hard to tell."
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Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  10:07:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
I believe you, Sharon! And I don't think that you are nuts. Regardless of the type of bit used, I've always believed that a horse could respond to a direct rein. There are infinite pressure points along the bridle, and a horse can learn and respond to them. My old guy does. :)

-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"
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Saddletramp
Trail Boss (Moderator)



USA
2546 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  10:07:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Saddletramp's Homepage Send Saddletramp a Private Message
I believe you, Sharon! And I don't think that you are nuts. Regardless of the type of bit used, I've always believed that a horse could respond to a direct rein. There are infinite pressure points along the bridle, and a horse can learn and respond to them. My old guy does. :)

-Saddletramp

"She never moved the stars from their courses,
but she loved a good man and she rode good horses"
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Frost
Beginning Rider



USA
115 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  1:15:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frost's Homepage Send Frost a Private Message
I have a bit ALMOST identical to that one listed in the link, only thing is mine just has the single break in the middle and not the double. The bit came with the horse, and after I freed it up (was rusted tight) I have not been enamored with it's design. Even in a direct rein, if you pull on the rein to the side, the rein will cause the bottom shank to "twist" and also the curb to tighten, as well as the round loop at the top where the headstall attaches to also "twist" in bite into the face at that point. Such confusion!

I also agree about the stopping straight on. I don't think there is a bit out there that will acomplish a stop if the horse is in a "flee for life" mode, other than to simply turn the head to either side and make running difficult at best. Also, this one-rein-stop MUST be done immediately, and not waiting for a full out gallop as it is much harder to accomplish a stop at that point.

Vern

Former Nebraskan...
"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket."

'May the HORSE be with you!' Gentle as possible, yet firm as necessary.
"I like to ride bareback, and sometimes I even wear a shirt!"
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Frost
Beginning Rider



USA
115 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  1:15:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frost's Homepage Send Frost a Private Message
I have a bit ALMOST identical to that one listed in the link, only thing is mine just has the single break in the middle and not the double. The bit came with the horse, and after I freed it up (was rusted tight) I have not been enamored with it's design. Even in a direct rein, if you pull on the rein to the side, the rein will cause the bottom shank to "twist" and also the curb to tighten, as well as the round loop at the top where the headstall attaches to also "twist" in bite into the face at that point. Such confusion!

I also agree about the stopping straight on. I don't think there is a bit out there that will acomplish a stop if the horse is in a "flee for life" mode, other than to simply turn the head to either side and make running difficult at best. Also, this one-rein-stop MUST be done immediately, and not waiting for a full out gallop as it is much harder to accomplish a stop at that point.

Vern

Former Nebraskan...
"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket."

'May the HORSE be with you!' Gentle as possible, yet firm as necessary.
"I like to ride bareback, and sometimes I even wear a shirt!"
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  1:23:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
One reined stops...definetly difficult on a narrow trail. If a bit existed to make every horse stop...they'd make a mint! Best suggestion is NOT to ride in those areas if horse isn't broke enough or ready. Think John Lyons says something like ride where you are safe, or ride where you can, not where you can't. Having been on a not so pleasant ride or two, I keep those words close to heart.
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3424 Posts

Posted - 11/27/2005 :  1:23:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
One reined stops...definetly difficult on a narrow trail. If a bit existed to make every horse stop...they'd make a mint! Best suggestion is NOT to ride in those areas if horse isn't broke enough or ready. Think John Lyons says something like ride where you are safe, or ride where you can, not where you can't. Having been on a not so pleasant ride or two, I keep those words close to heart.
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