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dodib
Trainer

USA
783 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  1:59:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit dodib's Homepage Send dodib a Private Message
Anyone heard the the butterfly bit?? And does anyone know if you can show with it.

Dorthy Brown

Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  11:28:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
I don't think any shows allow it because of the slight gag action. It's a nice shank style, loads of presignal. Each show has their own rules about bits so you have to double check. I would guess that only in speed events you could use it for most shows. But that doesn't mean that you can't use it just not show in it. So many people limit themselves to what is show legal but you can school in anything that works for the horse and rider.
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2005 :  11:28:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
I don't think any shows allow it because of the slight gag action. It's a nice shank style, loads of presignal. Each show has their own rules about bits so you have to double check. I would guess that only in speed events you could use it for most shows. But that doesn't mean that you can't use it just not show in it. So many people limit themselves to what is show legal but you can school in anything that works for the horse and rider.
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dodib
Trainer

USA
783 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2005 :  08:19:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit dodib's Homepage Send dodib a Private Message
When I look it up on the internet its labeled as a curb bit, not a gag. Its also labeled as very very mild even a step milder than a Thom Thumb. I just have never really heard of them but bought one at the auction this weekend, I thought any type of curb could be used to show.

Dorthy Brown
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dodib
Trainer

USA
783 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2005 :  08:19:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit dodib's Homepage Send dodib a Private Message
When I look it up on the internet its labeled as a curb bit, not a gag. Its also labeled as very very mild even a step milder than a Thom Thumb. I just have never really heard of them but bought one at the auction this weekend, I thought any type of curb could be used to show.

Dorthy Brown
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2005 :  10:23:25 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
I don't know much about this butterfly bit, but I'd call any gag bit a curb bit because it works on a leverage action. It is definitely not a snaffle. Also, many bits are not allowed in shows depending on the class and the type of bit. For example; Most breed organizations do not allow the use of twisted wire bits in any class. So, yes, I would check the show rules for whatever club, association, or organization is putting on the show you are planning to attend.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 11/23/2005 :  10:23:25 AM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
I don't know much about this butterfly bit, but I'd call any gag bit a curb bit because it works on a leverage action. It is definitely not a snaffle. Also, many bits are not allowed in shows depending on the class and the type of bit. For example; Most breed organizations do not allow the use of twisted wire bits in any class. So, yes, I would check the show rules for whatever club, association, or organization is putting on the show you are planning to attend.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2005 :  01:37:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Gag and gag action are two different things. Same thing with Gag Bit and American Gag bit.

A True Gag bit has the bit(mouth piece or cheek piece) sliding up the cheek pieces of the headstall.

Gag Action is something that many combo, curb and even some newer snaffles have. It is the mouth piece sliding on the cheek piece of the bit. This action is slight in most cases but some bits have a lot of gag action, as much as a true gag in some cases. The amount of gag action is contraled by how much the mouth piece can move on the cheek piece.

So a curb can have gag action but that doesn't make it legal. No not all curbs are legal to show in. Like was said, many aren't legal.

This bit is mild but it's way more milder then a Tom Thumb. A Tom Thumb is NOT a mild bit by any means. I think it should be pulled right off the market but that's not going to happen as long as people keep using them.

The Butterfly bit is a good bit, it's a good transition bit. (lol that's funny since that is what the Tom Thumb was made to do and failed to badly.) The Reason it is a good transition bit because of the gag action. That works as a presignal before the full force of the bit is applied. It acts as a warning, a second for the horse to respond before you need to go farther. It gives a lot of play in a bit which is good for most horses for a transition bit. It's not going to work for all horses or riders but it is a good bit.

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Stormie
Clinician

1630 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2005 :  01:37:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit Stormie's Homepage Send Stormie a Private Message
Gag and gag action are two different things. Same thing with Gag Bit and American Gag bit.

A True Gag bit has the bit(mouth piece or cheek piece) sliding up the cheek pieces of the headstall.

Gag Action is something that many combo, curb and even some newer snaffles have. It is the mouth piece sliding on the cheek piece of the bit. This action is slight in most cases but some bits have a lot of gag action, as much as a true gag in some cases. The amount of gag action is contraled by how much the mouth piece can move on the cheek piece.

So a curb can have gag action but that doesn't make it legal. No not all curbs are legal to show in. Like was said, many aren't legal.

This bit is mild but it's way more milder then a Tom Thumb. A Tom Thumb is NOT a mild bit by any means. I think it should be pulled right off the market but that's not going to happen as long as people keep using them.

The Butterfly bit is a good bit, it's a good transition bit. (lol that's funny since that is what the Tom Thumb was made to do and failed to badly.) The Reason it is a good transition bit because of the gag action. That works as a presignal before the full force of the bit is applied. It acts as a warning, a second for the horse to respond before you need to go farther. It gives a lot of play in a bit which is good for most horses for a transition bit. It's not going to work for all horses or riders but it is a good bit.

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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2005 :  12:12:15 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
The one I'm familiar with is what you're calling the true gag, Stormie. I see that one used a lot on gaming horses. The gag action bit is one I'm not as familiar with.

I also know that not all curbs are legal depending on the association or organization it's connected with. Gag bits are usually not allowed in most show classes except for gaming events. I don't know about cattle classes since we don't have them normally in our shows in Indiana.

Thanks, Stormie, for the information. I enjoy adding to my knowledge when it comes to bits and bit action.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5092 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2005 :  12:12:15 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
The one I'm familiar with is what you're calling the true gag, Stormie. I see that one used a lot on gaming horses. The gag action bit is one I'm not as familiar with.

I also know that not all curbs are legal depending on the association or organization it's connected with. Gag bits are usually not allowed in most show classes except for gaming events. I don't know about cattle classes since we don't have them normally in our shows in Indiana.

Thanks, Stormie, for the information. I enjoy adding to my knowledge when it comes to bits and bit action.

"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning

Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Just walk beside me and be my friend.
-- Author Unknown
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Frost
Beginning Rider



USA
115 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2005 :  11:42:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frost's Homepage Send Frost a Private Message
I agree 100% with Stormie about the Tom Thumb being a poorly designed idea. If there EVER was a bit that could convey more than one signal to a horse at the same moment and confuse the horse on what you want, it's the Tom Thumb. When you pull on the left rein, for example, the upper shank will dig into the left side of the face of the hore as the right side sort of pushes against the face.. sort of. Then the curb strap just tightes everything and my opinion just makes things worse. True sanffle and true curbs are much better and the serverity of the bit, lies more in the hands of the rider than the size of the shank on the curb bit. My 2 cents worth. Stormie had a link to a site about Tom Thumbs, and I've printed out several copies and given to my equestrian friends.

About a week ago I bought Promise a Reinsman Full Cheek snaffle with sweet iron mouth piece. I believe it's a great choice for most applications.

Vern

Former Nebraskan...
"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket."

'May the HORSE be with you!' Gentle as possible, yet firm as necessary.
"I like to ride bareback, and sometimes I even wear a shirt!"
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Frost
Beginning Rider



USA
115 Posts

Posted - 11/24/2005 :  11:42:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frost's Homepage Send Frost a Private Message
I agree 100% with Stormie about the Tom Thumb being a poorly designed idea. If there EVER was a bit that could convey more than one signal to a horse at the same moment and confuse the horse on what you want, it's the Tom Thumb. When you pull on the left rein, for example, the upper shank will dig into the left side of the face of the hore as the right side sort of pushes against the face.. sort of. Then the curb strap just tightes everything and my opinion just makes things worse. True sanffle and true curbs are much better and the serverity of the bit, lies more in the hands of the rider than the size of the shank on the curb bit. My 2 cents worth. Stormie had a link to a site about Tom Thumbs, and I've printed out several copies and given to my equestrian friends.

About a week ago I bought Promise a Reinsman Full Cheek snaffle with sweet iron mouth piece. I believe it's a great choice for most applications.

Vern

Former Nebraskan...
"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket."

'May the HORSE be with you!' Gentle as possible, yet firm as necessary.
"I like to ride bareback, and sometimes I even wear a shirt!"
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sharon
Advanced Rider



USA
232 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  05:44:55 AM  Show Profile Send sharon a Private Message
I am now using the Comfort Gait Bit by Gaits of Gold's Brenda Imus. My horse finally has a quite mouth and seems comfortable with it. I did try many bits before this one including the Tom Thumb and traditional "walking horse" bits and had very poor results. The Comfort bit has a unique design. It can be used as a snaffle or a curb. Don't be fooled by the long shanks. Visit gaitsofgold.com to learn more about it.
The bit has been used on gaited and non-gaited horses and customer testimony is very good. The bit is so popular with the gaited horse community that a used one will bring practically bring the price of a new one on ebay auctions. However, it is rare to see one up for auction and you must be careful not to purchase a look alike. I have read on the GOG Forum that it is allowed for use in the show ring. Of course you should check with your rules to be sure.

"You never know til you know for sure and even then its hard to tell."

Edited by - sharon on 11/25/2005 06:07:23 AM
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sharon
Advanced Rider



USA
232 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  05:44:55 AM  Show Profile Send sharon a Private Message
I am now using the Comfort Gait Bit by Gaits of Gold's Brenda Imus. My horse finally has a quite mouth and seems comfortable with it. I did try many bits before this one including the Tom Thumb and traditional "walking horse" bits and had very poor results. The Comfort bit has a unique design. It can be used as a snaffle or a curb. Don't be fooled by the long shanks. Visit gaitsofgold.com to learn more about it.
The bit has been used on gaited and non-gaited horses and customer testimony is very good. The bit is so popular with the gaited horse community that a used one will bring practically bring the price of a new one on ebay auctions. However, it is rare to see one up for auction and you must be careful not to purchase a look alike. I have read on the GOG Forum that it is allowed for use in the show ring. Of course you should check with your rules to be sure.

"You never know til you know for sure and even then its hard to tell."

Edited by - sharon on 11/25/2005 06:07:23 AM
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  06:09:20 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Sharon -- I tuned into this thread and went to the website to look at the bit. It looks like a terrific design from the little I know about bits. It says...

These actions are enhanced by the shape and length of the mouthpiece, which is designed to extend slightly beyond the horse’s lips, and gives a smooth, rolling request at the lips, rather than a direct yanking action.

What does it mean the mouth piece extends slightly beyond the horse's lips? What part of the lips are they talking about? I sure wish someone had a website that showed the bit from several angles, then showed it with a superimposed horse's mouth over it so you can see the bit inside as it lays relaxed, and then another one so you can see the bit's action when the reins are pulled back (to the side or straight back). It's really hard to picture the action IN the horse's mouth and what parts it puts pressure against. But here, when it says "extends slightly beyond horse's lips" I couldn't tell what they meant.
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  06:09:20 AM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Sharon -- I tuned into this thread and went to the website to look at the bit. It looks like a terrific design from the little I know about bits. It says...

These actions are enhanced by the shape and length of the mouthpiece, which is designed to extend slightly beyond the horse’s lips, and gives a smooth, rolling request at the lips, rather than a direct yanking action.

What does it mean the mouth piece extends slightly beyond the horse's lips? What part of the lips are they talking about? I sure wish someone had a website that showed the bit from several angles, then showed it with a superimposed horse's mouth over it so you can see the bit inside as it lays relaxed, and then another one so you can see the bit's action when the reins are pulled back (to the side or straight back). It's really hard to picture the action IN the horse's mouth and what parts it puts pressure against. But here, when it says "extends slightly beyond horse's lips" I couldn't tell what they meant.
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sharon
Advanced Rider



USA
232 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  06:56:58 AM  Show Profile Send sharon a Private Message
The mouth piece is long and curves downward and can exceed the corners of the horse's mouth. You might even think the bit is too big but this is intentional in the design. It is completely pinchless and can be used with double reins if desired. I am not a bit expert but my husband and I are so impressed by the difference in the "happy" factor of my mare after switching to this bit.

I would like to add that my horse no longer tries to yank the reins out of my hands. She used to drive her head down as if to buck. She no longer has excessive slobbering. She no longer tosses her head. She no longer noses out. She is more supple in the neck and her frame is much less hollow when she gaits.

"You never know til you know for sure and even then its hard to tell."

Edited by - sharon on 11/25/2005 07:09:10 AM
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sharon
Advanced Rider



USA
232 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  06:56:58 AM  Show Profile Send sharon a Private Message
The mouth piece is long and curves downward and can exceed the corners of the horse's mouth. You might even think the bit is too big but this is intentional in the design. It is completely pinchless and can be used with double reins if desired. I am not a bit expert but my husband and I are so impressed by the difference in the "happy" factor of my mare after switching to this bit.

I would like to add that my horse no longer tries to yank the reins out of my hands. She used to drive her head down as if to buck. She no longer has excessive slobbering. She no longer tosses her head. She no longer noses out. She is more supple in the neck and her frame is much less hollow when she gaits.

"You never know til you know for sure and even then its hard to tell."

Edited by - sharon on 11/25/2005 07:09:10 AM
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  12:30:10 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Hmmmmm. It looks like a very interesting bit with various ways of using it. Curious, the website description says "The rings at the cheeks allow the rider to use the bit with either snaffle or curb action, making it a perfect transition bit for young horses." Yet the bit doesn't LQQK jointed (e.g., snaffle). Is it?

Also, how would you gauge the "whoa" factor if a horse gets scared of something and tries to bolt? That happened with Cloud twice in one place that scared her, and it so happened I was trying out a Dr. Bristol type bit that day. I got her under control very quickly, but have NO clue how she'd have done had I been using my french link. What's been your experience in that regard with this one, if any?
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  12:30:10 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Hmmmmm. It looks like a very interesting bit with various ways of using it. Curious, the website description says "The rings at the cheeks allow the rider to use the bit with either snaffle or curb action, making it a perfect transition bit for young horses." Yet the bit doesn't LQQK jointed (e.g., snaffle). Is it?

Also, how would you gauge the "whoa" factor if a horse gets scared of something and tries to bolt? That happened with Cloud twice in one place that scared her, and it so happened I was trying out a Dr. Bristol type bit that day. I got her under control very quickly, but have NO clue how she'd have done had I been using my french link. What's been your experience in that regard with this one, if any?
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  12:33:32 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Also, can someone explain a "gag" bit? Does it gag them as we thing of being gagged?
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OnTheWay
Clinician

1433 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  12:33:32 PM  Show Profile Send OnTheWay a Private Message
Also, can someone explain a "gag" bit? Does it gag them as we thing of being gagged?
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Frost
Beginning Rider



USA
115 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  1:20:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frost's Homepage Send Frost a Private Message
This is a link to an article by clinician and trainer Mark Rashid about the Tom Thumb bits. very nice article, with pictures too!! Courtesy of Stomie heading me that direction.

todayshorse.com/Articles/TroublewithTomThumb.htm

Vern

Former Nebraskan...
"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket."

'May the HORSE be with you!' Gentle as possible, yet firm as necessary.
"I like to ride bareback, and sometimes I even wear a shirt!"
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Frost
Beginning Rider



USA
115 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  1:20:29 PM  Show Profile  Visit Frost's Homepage Send Frost a Private Message
This is a link to an article by clinician and trainer Mark Rashid about the Tom Thumb bits. very nice article, with pictures too!! Courtesy of Stomie heading me that direction.

todayshorse.com/Articles/TroublewithTomThumb.htm

Vern

Former Nebraskan...
"The quickest way to double your money is to fold it over and put it back in your pocket."

'May the HORSE be with you!' Gentle as possible, yet firm as necessary.
"I like to ride bareback, and sometimes I even wear a shirt!"
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sharon
Advanced Rider



USA
232 Posts

Posted - 11/25/2005 :  1:22:57 PM  Show Profile Send sharon a Private Message
OnTheWay,
The bit is not jointed but each side works independently. My opinion regarding the whoa factor is that Whoa should be established early and from the ground. My horse needs no rein pressure to stop. A verbal Whoa is good enough. She does half halt well with this bit. Now as for the fear and flee factor, the one rein stop is usually the best choice. I really don't believe that the use of a painful bit is good horse training. Like saying, "If you don't stop, I'm gonna hurt you." It might be effective for a while but sooner or later the horse will grow weary of it and a whole new set of problems is likely to develope. ie: head tossing, chomping, nosing out, poor head carriage, and so on.

"You never know til you know for sure and even then its hard to tell."
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