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 Daily wormer
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dodib
Trainer

USA
783 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2005 :  11:29:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit dodib's Homepage Send dodib a Private Message
I think I want to switch to a daily wormer but have a question. Do I start the daily wormer when the horses would be due for the paste wormer or do I give the paste wormer then start with the daily the next day? Does it matter when I start the daily?

Dorthy Brown

sbower
Clinician



1083 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2005 :  5:46:20 PM  Show Profile Send sbower a Private Message
Actually using a daily wormer(pyrantel tartrate), contrary to popular opinion, does not mean you don't use paste wormers!. Daily wormers only kill large strongyles, small strongyles, pinworms and ascarids. You'll still have to use paste wormers at the same time... just don't give both on the same day (ie stop the daily to give the paste.)

The daily wormer would need to be supplemented, at the very least, with ivermectin (in fall, after a good freeze), to kill bots.

And most vets would recommend a twice yearly course of fenbendazole, double dose according to the horse's weight for 5 days in a row (to get rid of additional small strongyle larvae) AND a twice yearly treatment with pyrantel pamoate, double dose according to horse's weight for two days in a row, for tapeworms.

Whew! Horses have a heck of alot of worms! Additionally, there are anedotal accounts of increased hoof problems and increased risk of colic with daily wormers. The reports were frequent enough that one of the manufacturers (Pfizer) offered $5000 for the treatment of any horse that coliced while it was on their daily wormer ( I think it is Strongid c???). Of course you had to meet stringent requirements... and I think your vet had to sign you up That was a few years ago but maybe the program still exists. Lastly there is the problem of the worms developing resistence to the daily wormers... The manufacturers say that won't happen but haven't done the studies to prove it.

Sorry, didn't mean be negative but I am curious why you decided to try the daily wormer...They were all the rage a few years ago but have fallen mostly out of favor. If you do decide to use it, the daily wormer doesn't have to be discontinued to give Oxibendazole(Anthelcide), fenbendazole(Panacur, Safe-Guard...), ivermectin (Zimecterin, Equimectrin..) or pyrantel pamoate(Strongid...). Just don't dose with the daily wormer on the day you use the paste wormer.

Just as a side note, EVERYONE IMHO should be careful when using Quest(moxidectin). All of the other wormers are relatively safe even at 50 times the recommended dosage. Quest has a margin of error that is far less. Good product but you need to be aware that it is far more toxic. Definitely avoid it if you are using a daily wormer.

I hope the that someone is reading this cause it took me 15 minutes just to spell check it!. Time to go check when the last time I wormed was!

By the way... all standard disclaimers apply, I am not a vet, follow your own vets recommendations please! Use this for informational purposes only and read the product labels!
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sbower
Clinician



1083 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2005 :  5:46:20 PM  Show Profile Send sbower a Private Message
Actually using a daily wormer(pyrantel tartrate), contrary to popular opinion, does not mean you don't use paste wormers!. Daily wormers only kill large strongyles, small strongyles, pinworms and ascarids. You'll still have to use paste wormers at the same time... just don't give both on the same day (ie stop the daily to give the paste.)

The daily wormer would need to be supplemented, at the very least, with ivermectin (in fall, after a good freeze), to kill bots.

And most vets would recommend a twice yearly course of fenbendazole, double dose according to the horse's weight for 5 days in a row (to get rid of additional small strongyle larvae) AND a twice yearly treatment with pyrantel pamoate, double dose according to horse's weight for two days in a row, for tapeworms.

Whew! Horses have a heck of alot of worms! Additionally, there are anedotal accounts of increased hoof problems and increased risk of colic with daily wormers. The reports were frequent enough that one of the manufacturers (Pfizer) offered $5000 for the treatment of any horse that coliced while it was on their daily wormer ( I think it is Strongid c???). Of course you had to meet stringent requirements... and I think your vet had to sign you up That was a few years ago but maybe the program still exists. Lastly there is the problem of the worms developing resistence to the daily wormers... The manufacturers say that won't happen but haven't done the studies to prove it.

Sorry, didn't mean be negative but I am curious why you decided to try the daily wormer...They were all the rage a few years ago but have fallen mostly out of favor. If you do decide to use it, the daily wormer doesn't have to be discontinued to give Oxibendazole(Anthelcide), fenbendazole(Panacur, Safe-Guard...), ivermectin (Zimecterin, Equimectrin..) or pyrantel pamoate(Strongid...). Just don't dose with the daily wormer on the day you use the paste wormer.

Just as a side note, EVERYONE IMHO should be careful when using Quest(moxidectin). All of the other wormers are relatively safe even at 50 times the recommended dosage. Quest has a margin of error that is far less. Good product but you need to be aware that it is far more toxic. Definitely avoid it if you are using a daily wormer.

I hope the that someone is reading this cause it took me 15 minutes just to spell check it!. Time to go check when the last time I wormed was!

By the way... all standard disclaimers apply, I am not a vet, follow your own vets recommendations please! Use this for informational purposes only and read the product labels!
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5037 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2005 :  6:34:11 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
Good job on the explanation of wormers, sbower. I don't know about everyone else, but I think I learned a thing or three .



"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5037 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2005 :  6:34:11 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
Good job on the explanation of wormers, sbower. I don't know about everyone else, but I think I learned a thing or three .



"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning
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dodib
Trainer

USA
783 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2005 :  08:23:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit dodib's Homepage Send dodib a Private Message
Yes thanks I did learn a lot--guess I'll just stick to the paste wormer if I would have to give it anyway
I wish I could find Ivermectin in a grandule type. My horses fight the wormer and I have gone through the using an old tube and giving applesauce, etc, which works fine for the applesauce but then they still fight when its actual wormer(can smell it or something?). I just thought a daily would be less of a fight. I guess its not that big of a deal I manage to get it in them just thought anything that could make my life easier I would do. Tell me why can't they just make it taste good?? They try to make kids meds taste good so they will take it why can't they do the same with horses?????

Dorthy Brown
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dodib
Trainer

USA
783 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2005 :  08:23:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit dodib's Homepage Send dodib a Private Message
Yes thanks I did learn a lot--guess I'll just stick to the paste wormer if I would have to give it anyway
I wish I could find Ivermectin in a grandule type. My horses fight the wormer and I have gone through the using an old tube and giving applesauce, etc, which works fine for the applesauce but then they still fight when its actual wormer(can smell it or something?). I just thought a daily would be less of a fight. I guess its not that big of a deal I manage to get it in them just thought anything that could make my life easier I would do. Tell me why can't they just make it taste good?? They try to make kids meds taste good so they will take it why can't they do the same with horses?????

Dorthy Brown
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Parrothead
Trainer



USA
559 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2005 :  08:47:20 AM  Show Profile Send Parrothead a Private Message
Boy did I learn a lot. And here I thought I was doing OK by worming them every three months with an ivermectin.
Here is alist of articles I found on the Clinton Anderson site. I have never tried using this technique as my kids think wormer is desert.

http://downunderhorsemanship.com/articles.html

Jill
ride like you have never ate the dirt
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Parrothead
Trainer



USA
559 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2005 :  08:47:20 AM  Show Profile Send Parrothead a Private Message
Boy did I learn a lot. And here I thought I was doing OK by worming them every three months with an ivermectin.
Here is alist of articles I found on the Clinton Anderson site. I have never tried using this technique as my kids think wormer is desert.

http://downunderhorsemanship.com/articles.html

Jill
ride like you have never ate the dirt
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5037 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2005 :  12:27:06 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
Dove was terrible about worming... so much so I frequently had the vet do it during vaccination time . But he showed me a little trick that has worked so well that I rarely fight to worm Dove (or Terra ) at all. He prepared the dose, held onto Dove's halter with him in the stall, and placed the plastic syringe flat against the side of Dove's face. He then brought it closer to Dove's mouth until it was resting against the corner of his mouth. (In the meantime, Dove was shaking his head up & down.). As soon as Dove kept his head still, Doc would try to push the syringe into the corner of Dove's mouth. If Dove started bobbing his head, again, Doc would just rest the syringe against his mouth and wait for the next chance. It took time, but this worked to worm my horses.

After worming this way over time, my horses know when the halter is on and the wormer is coming, that they might as well just stand there and take it, since they're going to get it anyway . Most of the time, now, I can just grab hold of the halter, place the syringe into the corner of their mouth, and push the plunger while aiming it toward the back of the tongue. They just stand there till it's done .



"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning
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Red Hawk
Clinician



USA
5037 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2005 :  12:27:06 PM  Show Profile Send Red Hawk a Private Message
Dove was terrible about worming... so much so I frequently had the vet do it during vaccination time . But he showed me a little trick that has worked so well that I rarely fight to worm Dove (or Terra ) at all. He prepared the dose, held onto Dove's halter with him in the stall, and placed the plastic syringe flat against the side of Dove's face. He then brought it closer to Dove's mouth until it was resting against the corner of his mouth. (In the meantime, Dove was shaking his head up & down.). As soon as Dove kept his head still, Doc would try to push the syringe into the corner of Dove's mouth. If Dove started bobbing his head, again, Doc would just rest the syringe against his mouth and wait for the next chance. It took time, but this worked to worm my horses.

After worming this way over time, my horses know when the halter is on and the wormer is coming, that they might as well just stand there and take it, since they're going to get it anyway . Most of the time, now, I can just grab hold of the halter, place the syringe into the corner of their mouth, and push the plunger while aiming it toward the back of the tongue. They just stand there till it's done .



"God forbid that I should go to any heaven in which there are no horses"
--Robert Browning
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3394 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2005 :  12:50:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
S Bower, good info. I had heard the same thing about Quest with also some negative side effects...and seems I read not to be used with mare in foal???

The daily wormers...my vet offered this program last year, decided not to do it as think more cost-wise to use the daily when I figured it out and the cost of her well horse routine care program.

I actually thought the daily wormer helped prevent colic, and remember posting asking the benefits..maybe I am wrong, but think someone on the forum said that. So am surprised it can actually cause colic....maybe that makes more sense with the offer of free colic surgery.

Thanks for the info. Jake too would take seconds on the wormers if he could! Annie not bad, the POA a real fight! Last go around did the desensitization with the syringe on side of face and mouth, then popped it in. He's alot to wrestle with!
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3394 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2005 :  12:50:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
S Bower, good info. I had heard the same thing about Quest with also some negative side effects...and seems I read not to be used with mare in foal???

The daily wormers...my vet offered this program last year, decided not to do it as think more cost-wise to use the daily when I figured it out and the cost of her well horse routine care program.

I actually thought the daily wormer helped prevent colic, and remember posting asking the benefits..maybe I am wrong, but think someone on the forum said that. So am surprised it can actually cause colic....maybe that makes more sense with the offer of free colic surgery.

Thanks for the info. Jake too would take seconds on the wormers if he could! Annie not bad, the POA a real fight! Last go around did the desensitization with the syringe on side of face and mouth, then popped it in. He's alot to wrestle with!
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sbower
Clinician



1083 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2005 :  7:56:46 PM  Show Profile Send sbower a Private Message
FB,
Your're right...daily worming was considered to reduce the risk of colic but it makes the assumption that the colic was caused by a worm impaction which for the most part doesn't appear to be true. Gas and food impactations are probably more common and tapeworms (the cause of most parasite impactions) aren't killed by daily wormers anyway. The idea that the daily worming might actually cause colic came from the endurance riders. The anedotal reports were in performance horses and particularily Arabs. This hasn't been proven... so it may or may not pan out in the end that the daily wormer might be a cause of colic in a specific population. Pfizer does still offer the guarantee .. see http://www.equinepreventicare.com/display.asp?country=US&drug=PV&species=EQ&lang=EN&sec=140 if you are interested.

Quest is labeled for restricted use in foals (6+months and older). It is labeled for use in pregnant mares but I wouldn't use it. Here's why... The risk of overdosing is actually quite high. The industry calculates a LD-50 for each wormer. This stands for the lethal dose in 50% of the population. Ivermectin has an LD-50 of 15. This means that if you gave 10 horses 15 tubes of ivermectin wormer all at one time, it would be likely that 5 of those 10 horses would die. Quest, has an LD-50 of only 3. So, if you gave 10 horses 3 Quest wormers, 5 would probably die.

Interestingly, Panacur (fenbendazole) just doesn't kill a horse, no matter how much you give! A lot of people don't like to do the double dosing for 5 days but studies show that it's really safe. It also is the best way to get rid of all the encysted worms, if you use Panacur (fenbendazole) twice a year along with a regular worming program every 8 weeks, rotating the type of wormers, your horse will be in great shape!

Okay, I know, way more than you wanted to know! See how good I was at restraining myself in the original post!!!
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sbower
Clinician



1083 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2005 :  7:56:46 PM  Show Profile Send sbower a Private Message
FB,
Your're right...daily worming was considered to reduce the risk of colic but it makes the assumption that the colic was caused by a worm impaction which for the most part doesn't appear to be true. Gas and food impactations are probably more common and tapeworms (the cause of most parasite impactions) aren't killed by daily wormers anyway. The idea that the daily worming might actually cause colic came from the endurance riders. The anedotal reports were in performance horses and particularily Arabs. This hasn't been proven... so it may or may not pan out in the end that the daily wormer might be a cause of colic in a specific population. Pfizer does still offer the guarantee .. see http://www.equinepreventicare.com/display.asp?country=US&drug=PV&species=EQ&lang=EN&sec=140 if you are interested.

Quest is labeled for restricted use in foals (6+months and older). It is labeled for use in pregnant mares but I wouldn't use it. Here's why... The risk of overdosing is actually quite high. The industry calculates a LD-50 for each wormer. This stands for the lethal dose in 50% of the population. Ivermectin has an LD-50 of 15. This means that if you gave 10 horses 15 tubes of ivermectin wormer all at one time, it would be likely that 5 of those 10 horses would die. Quest, has an LD-50 of only 3. So, if you gave 10 horses 3 Quest wormers, 5 would probably die.

Interestingly, Panacur (fenbendazole) just doesn't kill a horse, no matter how much you give! A lot of people don't like to do the double dosing for 5 days but studies show that it's really safe. It also is the best way to get rid of all the encysted worms, if you use Panacur (fenbendazole) twice a year along with a regular worming program every 8 weeks, rotating the type of wormers, your horse will be in great shape!

Okay, I know, way more than you wanted to know! See how good I was at restraining myself in the original post!!!
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3394 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2005 :  09:32:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
Hey, take off those restraints! Very concise and appreciate the info.
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fracturedbones
Clinician



3394 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2005 :  09:32:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit fracturedbones's Homepage Send fracturedbones a Private Message
Hey, take off those restraints! Very concise and appreciate the info.
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3773 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2005 :  9:50:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dodib


I wish I could find Ivermectin in a grandule type.



Don't know if you are aware of it, but there is a new product called IverEase that is just that, and goes into the grain.

Bought some today & used it on 3 horses. Warsong (6), ate every bit of it mixed in her feed. Butterbrickle (2), left a little in the bottom of the bucket, which I mixed in with a little molasses. She then ate the rest of it. But Butterbaby (15) left quite a bit in the bottom of the bucket, and never did finish all of it, no matter what I did. I guess 2 out of 3 isn't too bad!

The reason I did this was that with my gimpy no-longer-broken-but-not quite-yet-normal arm, I didn't want to go through the hassle of trying to get the tube wormer down them. May still have to get a tube to use on the older mare, since she may not have eaten enough of the granules to do any good. On the plus side, she is the easiest one to administer the tube wormers to.

EZ2SPOT
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EZ2SPOT
Clinician

USA
3773 Posts

Posted - 10/29/2005 :  9:50:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit EZ2SPOT's Homepage Send EZ2SPOT a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by dodib


I wish I could find Ivermectin in a grandule type.



Don't know if you are aware of it, but there is a new product called IverEase that is just that, and goes into the grain.

Bought some today & used it on 3 horses. Warsong (6), ate every bit of it mixed in her feed. Butterbrickle (2), left a little in the bottom of the bucket, which I mixed in with a little molasses. She then ate the rest of it. But Butterbaby (15) left quite a bit in the bottom of the bucket, and never did finish all of it, no matter what I did. I guess 2 out of 3 isn't too bad!

The reason I did this was that with my gimpy no-longer-broken-but-not quite-yet-normal arm, I didn't want to go through the hassle of trying to get the tube wormer down them. May still have to get a tube to use on the older mare, since she may not have eaten enough of the granules to do any good. On the plus side, she is the easiest one to administer the tube wormers to.

EZ2SPOT
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
5984 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2005 :  7:44:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
We use a liquid Ivermectin direcly on the grain. Most of the hoses eat it without a problem.

Ed

"How Tyme Flys"
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Hook
Trail Boss (Moderator)



Canada
5984 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2005 :  7:44:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Hook's Homepage Send Hook a Private Message
We use a liquid Ivermectin direcly on the grain. Most of the hoses eat it without a problem.

Ed

"How Tyme Flys"
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